Thommy H:
Tirade? I’ve mentioned my list once in about the last three months, and my previous post that mentioned it was completely in context. This thread has taken an utterly bizarre turn…
Hashut’s Blessing:
I’m afraid you’re making me put my foot down here. Everyone stop stirring things up and only talk about the original topic of this thread or it gets locked.
I won’t make comment on any of the accusations because this needs to be dropped and I do mean now.
Discussion about the newsletter or don’t post in this thread, please.
Thommy H:
100% fine by me.
This message was automatically appended because it was too short.
zhatan87:
What a mess here…
Very very very surprised from what you told Times… I completely felt that rules shown in the French list will be in the book (for most of them).
And it was the reason why there were differences in term of sentences between two things shown on the FW website… For example magma cannon and dreadquake mortar…
I hope they do not make a complete reversal, with no core CD, and only IG for profitable reasons…
Thommy H:
The impression I get is that there has been a lot of indecision about some stuff. It may explain the delay anyway.
Groznit Goregut:
I have to admit that I am curious as to what else is going to be in the list. We know there will be hobgoblins, but what else? It makes me wonder what type of Specials they will have. I have to admit I’m a bit frustrated that we don’t have the full list. At least it DOES make everyone eager for their products when they come out. What other Special units would they put in?
Does anyone know how the other FW 40k stuff is done? They aren’t lopsided in types of units, are they?
I do like the fact that I could probably use the Mantic war machine for almost any of the FW war machines listed. I will just need to do something if I want multiple.
Baggronor:
Regarding the Dreadquake, if the misfire chart is also as bad as it was in the draft version, that’s pretty poor - where is the trade-off for something so expensive being so unreliable? It makes no sense. Really hope they just give it the rules it deserves and charge appropriate points - it should be a weapon of terror.
The Magma Cannon is basically the old rules for the Flame Cannon iirc. It’ll be hideous with the 8th ed template rules. Just think of all the Skavenslaves it could toast 
I’ll buy it just for that.
khedyarl:
Is it possible they are taking into account a Daemonsmith style reroll rule into account? When being babysat, it’s unlikely that the DQ will misfire. The more I think about it, that may be the reason for the massive pointscost. Even the Hellcannon doesn’t get to re-roll the misfire or scatter dice, making the DQ one of the most reliable/deadliest warmachines on the market {maybe a runed-up catapult, but they don’t have the AP boost to devastate heavily armoured units in addition to lighter infantry.
I mean, when you get down to it, I can only think of four warmachines that pull a S10/5 template {barring the Dreadquake} {all costs include ogre crew; we also assume that the Chaos dwarf player has a mage within range of the machine - not a stretch, I would think}:
Runed up Catapult {-Runes of penetration/accuracy-80 points cheaper, no armour piercing, rerolls scatter, but not misfire, if it misfires it may reroll the misfire table result, less durable, no quake effect}
Hellstorm {100 points cheaper, is hideously inaccurate {for those of you that haven’t played one, it fires like a cannon, then scatters like a catapult from that spot}, they do have the ability to take an Engineer - but I can’t remember offhand if they are even allowed to accompany a hellstorm, I know they can’t attend a hellblaster, no AP, no multiple wounds, no quake ability}
Trebuchet {120 points cheaper, no AP, no rerolls available at all, cannot move, no quake, slightly less durable, leadership 5, exists within an army dynamic that is quite different than most that definitely represent its inexpensive nature}
Hellcannon {10 points cheaper, has an armour save, is far more durable due to it’s monstrous nature, causes panic checks at -1 leadership, no reroll to scatter or misfire available, must roll leadership check each round or go insane, has an awesome/horrible/awesome misfire chart, can take entire infantry units on its own in combat}
The Trebuchet is certainly a powerhouse, but due to it’s very narrow focus {cannot move}, and place in a fully mounted army, with a leadership of 5, it’s also the war engine that is most likely to die second round from a lot of different sources.
I don’t know, I think as long as the Daemonsmith rule holds out, I think that the Dreadquake is definitely the hardest hitting warmachine in the game. It has AP and quake over every single other small template, and multiple wounds over the hellstorm’s larger template - which is hugely inaccurate.
Maybe we’re looking at this the wrong way?
EDIT: Also keeping in mind that any other army buying an Engineer isn’t getting a mage for those points, and a reroll for warmachines as a side-effect, rather than primary purpose.
MartyF:
According to the Gamesday france list we can take a hellcannon, I was assuming it would benfit from the re-rolls as well? As I, and a few others have said, its not that its necessarily a bad option (I’ll definitely be giving it go), just that the magma cannon (st5 multiwound) preforms a very similar role for a lot less points.
However it is a lot of points that is quite easy to take out, for similar points we could take a hellcannon that can at least look after itself in combat!
Ogre_Mage:
EDIT: Also keeping in mind that any other army buying an Engineer isn't getting a mage for those points, and a reroll for warmachines as a side-effect, rather than primary purpose.So we have to spend an extra 95 points to counter this. Dwarf engineers are what 15ish points? The Empire's engineer is 65, and then can be given a long rifle for sniping or pigeon bombs for long range actions if the reroll isn't needed..
khedyarl
Putting our mages near the warmachines will restrict LoS for magic missiles, and make range a factor for most spells. I've attempted this once with the French GT rules and felt it wasn't worth the points for a useless mage. Also it forced me to clump all my artillery up to get the max bonus, making it a huge target for the other side's artillery and mages.
And back to the Deamonsmith special rule: It's only a lookout sir on a 4+, if playing anything with ranged it's easy to get killed in round 1. to avoid this he would need to be placed in a unit of warriors also holding back increasing the points more
zhatan87:
According to the Gamesday france list we can take a hellcannon, I was assuming it would benfit from the re-rolls as well?I don't think so cause it said "warmachine" and hellcannon isn't a warmachine.
Putting our mages near the warmachines will restrict LoS for magic missilesI tried it : don't forget you can pick the lore of fire, with a fireball that can be thrown 36 to 48 inches... And a very using spell against many armies : warhydra, hellpit, light cavalry, skirmishers...
And not to mention that not only the daemonsmith get a look at sir (4+) but it can also have magic armour. Such as a shield : ensorceled shield, or far better in this way : ptolos shield... (the shield which gives 1+ save). Very often enough to keep your daemonsmith alive against armies without cannon, if you make a deep deploiement... (and some stone thrower (the more accurate) but when you have a pricey warmachine and a pretty cheap daemonsmith, what do you choose?)
Hashut’s Blessing:
My reasoning for it not including the daemonsmith’s ability to allow re-rolls is that that would come under the daemonsmith’s points. Dwarf engineer is 15pts, but gives a minor ability - the dwarf master engineer gives a slightly better one and allows one machine to be in hard cover for 70pts.
Groznit Goregut:
The Flame Cannon is nice, but it only has a range of 24". The DQM has a range of72". You can put it safely behind your lines and make sure that the demonsmith is safe. It will be harder to get to the guy than if he was with the Flame Cannon. With how far units can move these days, you might not be able to protect it. The DQM can sit on a hill or be modeled to be on the tall side to see over the rest of the dwarfs and hobgoblins. You should be safe to pretty much hit anywhere on the table top. Nothing should be safe.
khedyarl:
So we have to spend an extra 95 points to counter this. Dwarf engineers are what 15ish points? The Empire's engineer is 65, and then can be given a long rifle for sniping or pigeon bombs for long range actions if the reroll isn't needed..Not entirely. The Dwarf 15 point engineer only allows you to reroll the misfire chart result, not a misfire result on the misfire dice, and the Empire Engineer, if he isn't using his reroll, is a virtual waste of 60-100 points {depending on how he is armed}
Ogre_Mage
The Chaos Dwarf Lore {all things so far assuming that the Lore remains similar to what what seen in the France GD copy - if it changes significantly, then we'll come back to this} is very low on magic missiles. Most of the lore is Hexes and Buffs, lots of no LOS spells.
Baggronor:
Is it possible they are taking into account a Daemonsmith style reroll rule into account? When being babysat, it's unlikely that the DQ will misfire.Is that paid for in the DS points? Initially I thought it should be, but actually, considering he is a regular wizard too and not an entirely war machine-centric character, maybe its not.
I don't know, I think as long as the Daemonsmith rule holds out, I think that the Dreadquake is definitely the hardest hitting warmachine in the game. It has AP and quake over every single other small template, and multiple wounds over the hellstorm's larger template - which is hugely inaccurate.Hmm. Perhaps you have a point. I always just thought it should be a pie-plate, considering the dimensions of the shell.
Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way?
The DQM has a range of72".:o Ok, now that is good. Didn't know that...
Thommy H:
Yeah, but how much does that even matter on the average table? Even with these mitigating factors, I just can’t account for what is really just a stone thrower with a couple of special rules being priced the same as a large monster.
Ogre_Mage:
Not entirely. The Dwarf 15 point engineer only allows you to reroll the misfire chart result, not a misfire result on the misfire dice, and the Empire Engineer, if he isn't using his reroll, is a virtual waste of 60-100 points {depending on how he is armed}Interesting, the dwarf player I usually go against has appearently been using the master engineer rules for the regular ones. I've always been envious of that 15 point cost while mine (as Empire) was always much more expensive. Was it different in an old edition? He hasn't played much 8th, and only used the 7th book 4-5 times. (We switched to 40k when 7th came out, then he moved)
khedyarl
khedyarl:
It may have been different, Ogre, my 5th ed Dwarf book is buried under a mountain of old stuff.
And Tommy’s right about the range - There is really very little functional difference on a standard table between 48 inches and 72 inches. That said, I think I’m slowly falling into the camp of {assuming the DS rules hold true} “Dreadquake Mortar is worth it”. It’ll still be slightly overcosted {it should cost the same, if not slightly less than the Hellcannon, I think}, but given that it is a Forgeworld item, and the list is only official as long as tourney organizers allow it, I’d rather things be slightly overcosted.
Nebuchandnezzar:
Yeah, but how much does that even matter on the average table? Even with these mitigating factors, I just can't account for what is really just a stone thrower with a couple of special rules being priced the same as a large monster.Just think, on a 4x4 table you can now beat pythagoras theorem when your in the corner of the board :P
Thommy H
Personaly, I feel that the DQ is the shiny thing that distracts fire from our true weapon of mass destruction, the flame cannon!!!
MartyF:
Good point on the hell cannon, that does change things a little and I might now take the mortar over it although in a competitive setting it would still be two magma cannons. Obviously that may change when I actually play some games 