[Archive] Non-shooty Chaos Dwarfs: feasible?

Admiral:

Gunless Dawi Zharr face significant troubles against most armies because they need artillery and gunfire to whittle down the foe before close combat is joined. The lack of many attacks is the greatest obstacle, because Chaos Dwarf units may have high strength, good weapon skill and toughness like an anvil, but they cannot pound the enemy into the ground with lots and lots of attacks.

Despite this I have managed a few victories and close defeats with almost gunless Chaos Dwarfs. I’ll recap my experience if it is of any help. Ogres got butchered by my 40 Infernal Guards strong great weapon horde in my first ever Chaos Dwarf game. The highlight from this game was an Ash Storm on the Ogre general’s Irongut unit and a Black Hammer of Hashut which pulverized the Slaughtermaster in close combat. Against most other armies my army list have been found lacking, although some augmentation spells and canny positioning of the horde out on the flank have helped the host score a few close-fought defeats. A great weapon horde is expensive to boot, and should protect its flanks by table edges or terrain when possible.

The K’daai section in my army list below proved to be a weakness, because they almost had to rush in before the M4 Chaos Dwarfs in order to dish out some damage before they started to burn out. In a future tournament I will probably switch the K’daai for Bull Centaurs, since their resiliance and speed might prove better for supporting the great weapon horde. In the first tournament, of 2000 points, the army lacked the Hellcannon and Hobgoblins Khan and also had some different magic item builds, but aside from having Lore of Hashut on its level 4 wizard it was not much different from this list, which had to keep within army composition constraints for the second tournament:

Lords:
(Metall) Sorcerer-Prophet (265), lvl.4 Wizard (35), Naptha Bombs (15), Blood of Hashut (20), Enchanted Shield (5), Talisman of Preservation (45), Sword of Anti-Heroes (30), Potion of Strength (20).
435pts.
Total: 435pts.

Heroes:
(Metall) Daemonsmith Sorcerer (95), lvl.2 Wizard (35), Naptha Bombs (15), Charmed Shield (5), Luckstone (5), Sword of Might (20), Ironcurse Icon (5).
180pts.
Infernal Castellan (105), BSB (25), shield (2), pistol (5), Black Hammer of Hashut (35), Dawnstone (25), Dragonhelm (10).
207pts.
Hobgoblin Khan (40), light armour (2), shield (2), Giant Wolf (12).
56pts.
Hobgoblin Khan (40), light armour (2), shield (2), Ruby Ring of Ruin (25).
69pts.
Hobgoblin Khan (40), light armour (2), shield (2), Potion of Toughness (20).
64pts.
Hobgoblin Khan (40), light armour (2), shield (2), Dragonbane Gem (5).
49pts.
Total: 625pts.

Core Units:
41 Infernal Guard (492), great weapons (123), FC (32), Naptha Bomb (5), Banner of Swiftness (15).
667pts.
Total: 667pts.

Special Units:
4 K’daii Fireborn (220), Manburner (10).
230pts.
Total: 230pts.

Rare Units:
K’daii Destroyer (325).
325pts.
Hellcannon (205).
205pts.
Total: 530pts.

Army total: 2487pts.

gIL^:


Gunless Dawi Zharr face significant troubles against most armies because they need artillery and gunfire to whittle down the foe before close combat is joined. The lack of many attacks is the greatest obstacle, because Chaos Dwarf units may have high strength, good weapon skill and toughness like an anvil, but they cannot pound the enemy into the ground with lots and lots of attacks.

Despite this I have managed a few victories and close defeats with almost gunless Chaos Dwarfs. I'll recap my experience if it is of any help. Ogres got butchered by my 40 Infernal Guards strong great weapon horde in my first ever Chaos Dwarf game. The highlight from this game was an Ash Storm on the Ogre general's Irongut unit and a Black Hammer of Hashut which pulverized the Slaughtermaster in close combat. Against most other armies my army list have been found lacking, although some augmentation spells and canny positioning of the horde out on the flank have helped the host score a few close-fought defeats. A great weapon horde is expensive to boot, and should protect its flanks by table edges or terrain when possible.

The K'daai section in my army list below proved to be a weakness, because they almost had to rush in before the M4 Chaos Dwarfs in order to dish out some damage before they started to burn out. In a future tournament I will probably switch the K'daai for Bull Centaurs, since their resiliance and speed might prove better for supporting the great weapon horde. In the first tournament, of 2000 points, the army lacked the Hellcannon and Hobgoblins Khan and also had some different magic item builds, but aside from having Lore of Hashut on its level 4 wizard it was not much different from this list, which had to keep within army composition constraints for the second tournament:

Lords:
(Metall) Sorcerer-Prophet (265), lvl.4 Wizard (35), Naptha Bombs (15), Blood of Hashut (20), Enchanted Shield (5), Talisman of Preservation (45), Sword of Anti-Heroes (30), Potion of Strength (20).
435pts.
Total: 435pts.

Heroes:
(Metall) Daemonsmith Sorcerer (95), lvl.2 Wizard (35), Naptha Bombs (15), Charmed Shield (5), Luckstone (5), Sword of Might (20), Ironcurse Icon (5).
180pts.
Infernal Castellan (105), BSB (25), shield (2), pistol (5), Black Hammer of Hashut (35), Dawnstone (25), Dragonhelm (10).
207pts.
Hobgoblin Khan (40), light armour (2), shield (2), Giant Wolf (12).
56pts.
Hobgoblin Khan (40), light armour (2), shield (2), Ruby Ring of Ruin (25).
69pts.
Hobgoblin Khan (40), light armour (2), shield (2), Potion of Toughness (20).
64pts.
Hobgoblin Khan (40), light armour (2), shield (2), Dragonbane Gem (5).
49pts.
Total: 625pts.

Core Units:
41 Infernal Guard (492), great weapons (123), FC (32), Naptha Bomb (5), Banner of Swiftness (15).
667pts.
Total: 667pts.

Special Units:
4 K'daii Fireborn (220), Manburner (10).
230pts.
Total: 230pts.

Rare Units:
K'daii Destroyer (325).
325pts.
Hellcannon (205).
205pts.
Total: 530pts.

Army total: 2487pts.


Admiral
Seems pretty solid, But you only have 5 deployments which may lead to failure.

You will be outnumbered by every army ( Ok Chaos Dwarfs are always outnumbered )

I recommend 2 big units of Hobgoblins, Perhaps hobgoblin heroes in with them for extra punch, That way your 2 weakness will be overcome.

Admiral:

Spot on, gIL^! I will do so once I have some Hobgobbos converted and basecoated, but that’ll probably take a long while since I first aim to finish that great weapon horde. It should also be noted that the Infernal Guards during one match did splendidly against Demigryphs on one flank of the table (and also caused the Empire player to flee with his Inner Circle Knights, which had been victorious against the Destroyer, once my Fireborn and horde together charged his knights - the result was a removed knight unit), and then went on to a brutal slug out with an augmented Halberdier horde during the last game turn, despite heavy artillery fire whittling them down. It ended in a last-turn close combat stalemate and a minor victory to the Empire, but I had some luck since the Steam Tank ground to a halt and couldn’t reach my unit. Those great weapons are a dream against knights, and if the unit survives more or less intact it will probably butcher any lightly armoured resistance as well.

I have higher hopes for the tag team army list below, which is an alliance between a friend’s Skaven army and my own Chaos Dwarfs under construction.

In theory the Clanrat blocks will move along the horde’s flanks with some manouverability distance of 4", whilst the ratling guns and Warlock engineers are there to pick out any diverters and irritators such as Great Eagles. The Grey Seer might be able to augment the Infernal Guards at a critical moment, whilst the Storm Banner will perhaps allow us to survive an important turn of enemy shooting should we face gunline elements.

The Bull Centaurs will charge along with the Abomination and hopefully break any resistance, or at least keep it pinned down. The K’daai Fireborn will probably be placed to support the infantry’s other flank, or maybe deploy in front of the horde and cause some havoc before the infantry units arrives, perhaps allowing for a better charge position to the great weapon horde.

Does the following list sound viable on paper?

The Red Host of Nir-Kezhar
1196 points Chaos Dwarf army


Heroes (299 pts)
Forge Vassal Ur-Nimbruk Azgamerrakhannikhuluk Ashtounge: Infernal Castellan (105); shield (2).
Total: 107 pts
Harhibal Slaveburner, Skull-keeper of Kataz: Infernal Castellan (105); Battle Standard Bearer (25), shield (2), Dragonhelm (10), Sword of Might (20), Dawnstone (25), Ironcurse Icon (5).
Total: 192 pts

Core Units (557 pts)
Eyes of Hell: 34 Infernal Guards (408); great weapons (102), Full Command (32), Banner of Swiftness (15).
Total: 557 pts

Special Units (340 pts)
Sacred Temple Feasters: 3 Bull Centaurs (120), shields (15), great weapons (30).
Total: 165 pts
Will of the Blacksmith: 3 K’daai Fireborn (165 pts), Manburner (10).
Total: 175 pts

Army total: 1196 pts.

Clan Tyzzkrafft
1199 points Skaven army


Lords (300 pts)
Grey Seer (240) Talisman of Preservation (45) Channeling Staff (15).
Total: 300 pts

Heroes (232 pts)
Chieftain (45) BSB (25) Storm Banner (50) Shield (2).
Total: 122 pts
Warlock Engineer (15) lvl 1 Wizard (50) Warp-Energy Condenser (20) Dispel Scroll (25).
Total: 110 pts

Core Units (417 pts)
30 Clanrats (120) Full command (20) Shields (15) Ratling Gun (55).
Total: 210 pts
29 Clanrats (116) Full command (20) Shields (14.5) Ratling Gun (55).
Total: 207 pts

Rare Units (250 pts)
Hell Pit Abomination (235) Warpstone Spikes (15).
Total: 250 pts

Army total: 1199 pts.

Groznit Goregut:

You can only take K’Daai if you also take a Demonsmith of lord or hero choice.

Norngahl:

Ahoy all!

I'm sitting on a small batch of Mantic Abyssal Dwarves and might get some forge world love. (crazy expensive love...but love nonetheless)

I'm wondering if Chaos Dwarfs can work without all the crazy shooting/ warmachines. Could you actually run a fun list with multiple threats...of which there's low shooting? Or does this army hinge on shooting?

Even better w/o the Kadai...as it brings your comp to crud where I'm at.

I'd like to know before I start collecting.

Bull Centaurs seem highly durable, but with just 2 attacks base, they seem to lack a punch. Or are these designed to house a B.C. hero? I love the models, but not crazy about a large base 2 attack cav.

Ironsworn, worth it?

Are the hobgobos worth it now? Cheap and steadfast, but taking up a nice LD bubble....like our army

Not 100% opposed to some shooting, but in moderation. A small unit of fireglaives or a brick with blunderbusses (blunderbussi?) Maybe even a lone rocket...

Thanks for any and all input

Blackspine
Hey!

I tried some very different armylists and found out that:

1. A sorcerer prohet on taurus (cheap 145 points) is a pretty nice tool to have. Against shooty opponents you can hang hided on the back, countercharging or going more offensive if needed, or if your mount got shot sneak back to the troops. Against aggressive opponents, you have pretty much nothing to fear from shooting, so you can freely move and deny marches/charges and countercharge or kill the small tarpit units alike. Against mixed armylists, you will always found a role for him.
A taurus is a great choice. It allows you the lacked mobility, some very nice offensive potential AND wasnt expensive if the mount gets shot. I dont leave home without a prophet on taurus anymore. If you dont get to face 3+ cannons, you will have a hell of fun and tactical advantage with it.

2. You really NEED the warmachines. At least 2, from which one is either the Magma Cannon or the hellcannon. Babysitting is quite expensive and very hard to do if youre going to face fast and elite enmies (chaos flyer chars and dark elves -.-), don't build all comers lists which have to babysit the warmachines. Personally I llike going with 2x DS and 1xMC, cheap 345 points firebase (2x small cannons OR pie plates which cause panic AND the flaming hell), but really, even with 30 BB in front of it you still often havent got the troops to protect the flanks, so the stuff gets eaten against an agile enemy pretty fast. And don't forget, that your warmachines have no targets once combat breaks out. With short ranged CDs, you really gotta watch not to spend too much points on shooting (they will loose shooting duels with empire/dwarfs). See the WMs as support.

3. I dont understand why people are always focussed on kdaais and bull centaures so much. Sure, bull centaures are great and hard to take out, but they dont offer much damage in return. Yes, you can spend 200 points on a tauruk and another 275+ on 5 centaures, but really, thats some really heavy point sink, that can easily be bound (imgaine 40+ regiments) or reduced by shooting to next to none serious damage output.. They are good, sure, but to make them killy you have to spend around 500 points for them.. Kdaai are also nice gainst moist low-medium armored infatry, but when it comes down to armor/several rounds, they burn themself like hell, without incorporating the losses in combat.. They are unfortunately rather fragile, and spending 450+ points to make them work as a reliable hitter is quite as nice as the centaures ;)
But why does anyone and his mother forget about the skullcrusher? I mean, with hellbound upgrade this is an average 10 s8 auto hits beast with T8, W8 and 3+ AS in return.. Most stuff seriously cant harm it, its unbreakable. Sure, it can easily be take out by cavalry or monsters/m infantry. But you dont see cavalry very often these days and the rest can be dealt with, as you can send the destroyer into that stuff. But a Skullcrusher causing 8+ wounds on ironbreakers or something like that each rund without taking much damage in return is just awesome. And thats just before you casted metal spell for 1+ AS on it.. It takes more carefull handling than blocks of BC/Kdaai, but is awesome when it strikes. Combined with a destroyer, it makes a great flank denial part :) It becomes even more attractive in restricted tournaments, where destroyers are bound to heavy other restrictions or where you have a point limit on units (max. 350 points on a single unit beside chars).

4. Infernal Guard
Fireglaives suck compared to the other options, nothing more to say. 30+ Infernal Guards with great weapons and Castellan are a serious enemy (for a core choice!) and good to take, especially if you have a Sorcerer Prophet who can cast hatred on them... 30 S6 Attacks with rerolls are mean... Very mean. If you put the ironcruse icon on the castellan, the IG becomes even more resilent. Definately a must have item on your castellan. Same goes for HW/S. They are more all round and work even without a castellan (give them the gleaming pennant) pretty good. Fair offense, great defense. Both a good to take for all combat lists, but when i go all combat (or just 2 WM), id prefer the GW block for the extra punch. Nothing more to say, good core choice as well. The Blunderbusses are a bit special.. If you know what you are facing, or if there are limited options (restrictions for tournaments) they are definately a good choice to add some more firepower to your armylist without giving up CC abilitys AND they do a decent point bunker. But lets be gentle- id rather do another Magma Cannon than spening the core choice an extremly costly short ranged and unreliable S3 gun. But again, in an restricted area, they do great.

Summary:

-Never go without a Magma and/or Hellcannon. You seriously need it.
- Dont overlook some options like Great Taurus/Skullcrasher. Definately worth to take a look at, even if they require more playskill/army composition.
- Target overload is golden for cc armys. Ever dealt with a destroyer, a skullcrasher, a sorcerer on taurus, 40 IG with GW and castellan AND BC/Kdaai rushing on you at the same time? Just awesome.

Best regards :hat off