[Archive] Non-shooty Chaos Dwarfs: feasible?

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
1

Blackspine:

Ahoy all!

I’m sitting on a small batch of Mantic Abyssal Dwarves and might get some forge world love. (crazy expensive love…but love nonetheless)

I’m wondering if Chaos Dwarfs can work without all the crazy shooting/ warmachines. Could you actually run a fun list with multiple threats…of which there’s low shooting? Or does this army hinge on shooting?

Even better w/o the Kadai…as it brings your comp to crud where I’m at.

I’d like to know before I start collecting.

Bull Centaurs seem highly durable, but with just 2 attacks base, they seem to lack a punch. Or are these designed to house a B.C. hero? I love the models, but not crazy about a large base 2 attack cav.

Ironsworn, worth it?

Are the hobgobos worth it now? Cheap and steadfast, but taking up a nice LD bubble…like our army

Not 100% opposed to some shooting, but in moderation. A small unit of fireglaives or a brick with blunderbusses (blunderbussi?) Maybe even a lone rocket…

Thanks for any and all input

2

Chico:

Ahoy all!

I'm sitting on a small batch of Mantic Abyssal Dwarves and might get some forge world love. (crazy expensive love...but love nonetheless)

I'm wondering if Chaos Dwarfs can work without all the crazy shooting/ warmachines. Could you actually run a fun list with multiple threats...of which there's low shooting? Or does this army hinge on shooting?

Even better w/o the Kadai...as it brings your comp to crud where I'm at.

I'd like to know before I start collecting.

Bull Centaurs seem highly durable, but with just 2 attacks base, they seem to lack a punch. Or are these designed to house a B.C. hero? I love the models, but not crazy about a large base 2 attack cav.

Ironsworn, worth it?

Are the hobgobos worth it now? Cheap and steadfast, but taking up a nice LD bubble....like our army

Not 100% opposed to some shooting, but in moderation. A small unit of fireglaives or a brick with blunderbusses (blunderbussi?) Maybe even a lone rocket...

Thanks for any and all input

Blackspine
I have once tried to run a list without Warmachines, It just plain sucked as all i did was sit in many a combat while not taking damage but not really dishing out any in return. Now i run 2 Warmachines and find that's all what was needed.

I find Hobgoblins only worth it in units of 20 with bows and then only if their badysitted by Chaos Dwarfs.

Ironsworn and Bulls have never made my list, love the new FW bulls but i feel there large base is too much of disadvantage.
3

burock:

the list i am playing has no shooting at all, save for the odd hellcannon. the problem we have about shooting is, although they are utterly destructive, they need babysitting and protection (again, not inc. hellcannon).

if you want to run a couple of WMs, you pay dearly for them; but since we lack the runes which dwarfs have to protect them from blowing themselves up, we need to pack them up in a tight spot and a daemonsmith should babysit them. thats a alot of investment in points, and the WM park is still not protected enough.

as an elite army, we dont have the luxury to protect the WMs. coz protecting them means you have to invest more. the cheapest option there is 20ish HGs with bows to take out the fliers and chaff that can behind your lines. that’s another investment and there s the risk of animosity.

BS shooting troops are a nay due to their high cost, low BS and short range. Still, there are a couple of usages i can think of for them:

- blunderbusses in huge regiments with 11 frontage and a BSB inside, just for point denial.

- 10 fireglaives for WM protection. still very expensive if you ask me.

about ironsworn, i dont think they have a place in our list. we already have to choose infantries to fill our core. we dont need no more expensive infantries. especially when there are better options like BCs and k’daais. they are both fast troops which give you some tactical advantage rather although they are not packed with explosive power. just and advice: i’d kit the BCs with GWs if i were you. less attacks but the enemy will feeln the pain.

just my 2 cents…

4

MLP:

I’ve toyed with the idea of combat oriented lists but normally end up having some form of missile weapon in there.

Without warmachines you lack heavy killing power (except for magic). You then have to rely on kdaii or bull centaurs (which aren’t fantastic).

The chaos dwarf army really needs to soften up the enemy before wiping them out in combat.

Saying that you can have a list using, mounted prophet, tauruk, castellan, infernal block, kdaii, bull centaurs and destroyer which may be okay in combat. But it’s not what we’re best at.

Ironsworn. I think their only place is in a hobgoblin core army. They do the exact same job as infernal guard just a little bit better. They’re like what chosen are for chaos warriors.

5

Kera foehunter:

I say use no shooter if you go up agenst Ogre… Now that would be a hell of a braw

point for points

6

Blackspine:

I've toyed with the idea of combat oriented lists but normally end up having some form of missile weapon in there.

Without warmachines you lack heavy killing power (except for magic). You then have to rely on kdaii or bull centaurs (which aren't fantastic).

The chaos dwarf army really needs to soften up the enemy before wiping them out in combat.

MLP
So do Blunderbuss actually perform in the 'weakening up the enemy' role? They act like additions to core/ troops, correct?

The hellrocket acts nothing like a cannon, from what I can see. Is there something I'm missing? Is there an actual cannon in our list ?

(outside of the s6 steam cannon)
7

nilbog:

So non-shooty means relying on magic or close combat.

Magic: Outside of flames of azgorh or maybe ashstorm, you’re relying on the brb lores; death is good for sniping enemy characters, fire is good against dark elves or empire. While we have good magic defence (chalice) we don’t have enough magic offence to bully through the spells we want (e.g. light coven, book of hoeth).

Close combat: Our options here are a bit more varied. The bale taurus is a reasonably priced monstrous mount, as long as you pick your targets. K’daai destroyer (enough said) and fireborn are obvious choices, just make sure you have enough fireborn (6+) to survive toughness tests. Bull centurs are ok, but will attract a lot of firepower. They are probably more useful just so you can include a taar’uk, who can eliminate small units on his own (as long as he doesn’t get shot too much); again, pick your targets carefully. If you want lots of hobgoblins, then ironsworn could be used (infernal guard and ironsworn are similar enough that if you’ve got IG in your core, you don’t really need ironsworn - don’t spend more on core than you need to).

So, what have we got? A sorcerer-prophet on a bale taurus, lots of hobgoblins with infernal guard or ironsworn depending on what core you’ve got, obviously a bsb, maybe another castellen if you’ve got more units of infantry, small units of bull centaurs, taar’uk, MSU fireborn, destroyer.

I think the key here is to be fast - nobody expects (the spanish inquisition) dwarfs to be fast - if you’ve got fast(ish) units that are CC caapable you may well take you opponent by surprise.

8

Blackspine:

Very solid advice.

thank you.

Have you used lore of Metal often?
Aaaaand there’s my answer in your “how to…”

Well written. Thanks!

9

brotsorrow:

i’ve been thinking about this before i post. This army needs shooting, as stated by MLP, to soften up units before engaging into combat. Our units are so expensive and we as generals cannot afford our (most likely) smaller units get caught up.

10

Baggronor:

Relinquishing Magma Cannons would be a great shame - they are totally outrageous and far more broken than the Destroyer.

Even better w/o the Kadai…as it brings your comp to crud where I’m at.
Sigh. People still not learned how to deal with it? :~

Regarding combat units, my advice is still Fireborn Fireborn Fireborn. I played LoA solidly for a month or two recently, and my regular opponent and I both came to the conclusion that they are just win. I run a block of 6-8 and they are startlingly resilient and pretty much the only troop type we have apart from the Destroyer that can really dish out the damage. They tear through infantry like nobody’s business.

If you were dead set on an all-combat army build, I would go for 1-2 big blocks of IG with castellans, a big block of Fireborn and either a Destroyer or a block of BCs with a Taur’ruk with Crown of Command. Prophet with Metal (for Glittering Robe) or Death (sniping). Give no easy VPs. I doubt it’ll win much though, nor will it be fun to play (you’ll spend most of the game moving and getting into combat on your opponent’s terms if they are any good).

If you want all combat, just go WoC - they are actually designed to do that.

11

nilbog:

Very solid advice.

thank you.

Have you used lore of Metal often?
Aaaaand there's my answer in your "how to.."

Well written. Thanks!

Blackspine
Thanks, glad to be of service! I don't use metal much, but there is a good breakdown and discussion here.
12

Blackspine:

Even better w/o the Kadai...as it brings your comp to crud where I'm at.
Sigh. People still not learned how to deal with it? :~

If you want all combat, just go WoC - they are actually designed to do that.


Baggronor
Yeah, sadly most people get a bit sore because they don't throw a nonstompable hero/ lord with the 5 /10 pt flame resistance at him. Blech.

All combat dwarves is not my idea, that sounds as fun as WoC.
march.
march
charge: fail? March/get charged Succeed? hold
march
eek out victory.

I like the idea of supporting shooting, just not the empire gunlines of the past.
Even a few Hobgoblin blocks with bows to whittle down chaff. The idea of a solid block of IG with blunderbuss is very tempting. Expensive, albeit tempting...

thanks a lot for the ideas
13

Geist:

Lets see no shooting eh? Its doable. Not very but doable. One could run a version of my list.

Lvl4

BSB

40 or so iron guard to make core with ap banner.

iron demon x2

kadi

4 units of hobgob khans on wolfs as redirects to keep the iron demons from getting stuck into things they cant crunch.

Now you can mix and match.

you could put in fireborn in 2 large bricks instead of the iron demons. Though I really dont know how much I trust them to stay alive due to burning bright.

14

Groznit Goregut:

Hobgoblins are pretty good, if you ask me. I play Orcs and Goblins and am used to and understand how a large unit of mediocre troops can do (and what they shouldn’t do). Our hobgoblins are as good as humans in all respects, except one pt of Ld and Animosity. Still, you put them in the Leadership Bubble and these guys will rarely break! Dirt cheap, as well. Get the Hatred spell off on a horde of 50 Hobgoblins with 2 hand weapons and they will do damage.

There is someone in the mid-west US who ran a mostly non-shooting aggressive list. He did pretty well and I think won at least a one day event with them. If not won, he came in top 5%. Can’t recall who. I think if you go for K’Daai Fireborn, Bull Centaurs, K’Daai Destroyer, and Prophet on Bull, the rest of your infantry can form a middle that tries to occupy the enemy while you sweep the flank.

15

Norngahl:

Ahoy all!

I'm sitting on a small batch of Mantic Abyssal Dwarves and might get some forge world love. (crazy expensive love...but love nonetheless)

I'm wondering if Chaos Dwarfs can work without all the crazy shooting/ warmachines. Could you actually run a fun list with multiple threats...of which there's low shooting? Or does this army hinge on shooting?

Even better w/o the Kadai...as it brings your comp to crud where I'm at.

I'd like to know before I start collecting.

Bull Centaurs seem highly durable, but with just 2 attacks base, they seem to lack a punch. Or are these designed to house a B.C. hero? I love the models, but not crazy about a large base 2 attack cav.

Ironsworn, worth it?

Are the hobgobos worth it now? Cheap and steadfast, but taking up a nice LD bubble....like our army

Not 100% opposed to some shooting, but in moderation. A small unit of fireglaives or a brick with blunderbusses (blunderbussi?) Maybe even a lone rocket...

Thanks for any and all input

Blackspine
Hey!

I tried some very different armylists and found out that:

1. A sorcerer prohet on taurus (cheap 145 points) is a pretty nice tool to have. Against shooty opponents you can hang hided on the back, countercharging or going more offensive if needed, or if your mount got shot sneak back to the troops. Against aggressive opponents, you have pretty much nothing to fear from shooting, so you can freely move and deny marches/charges and countercharge or kill the small tarpit units alike. Against mixed armylists, you will always found a role for him.
A taurus is a great choice. It allows you the lacked mobility, some very nice offensive potential AND wasnt expensive if the mount gets shot. I dont leave home without a prophet on taurus anymore. If you dont get to face 3+ cannons, you will have a hell of fun and tactical advantage with it.

2. You really NEED the warmachines. At least 2, from which one is either the Magma Cannon or the hellcannon. Babysitting is quite expensive and very hard to do if youre going to face fast and elite enmies (chaos flyer chars and dark elves -.-), don't build all comers lists which have to babysit the warmachines. Personally I llike going with 2x DS and 1xMC, cheap 345 points firebase (2x small cannons OR pie plates which cause panic AND the flaming hell), but really, even with 30 BB in front of it you still often havent got the troops to protect the flanks, so the stuff gets eaten against an agile enemy pretty fast. And don't forget, that your warmachines have no targets once combat breaks out. With short ranged CDs, you really gotta watch not to spend too much points on shooting (they will loose shooting duels with empire/dwarfs). See the WMs as support.

3. I dont understand why people are always focussed on kdaais and bull centaures so much. Sure, bull centaures are great and hard to take out, but they dont offer much damage in return. Yes, you can spend 200 points on a tauruk and another 275+ on 5 centaures, but really, thats some really heavy point sink, that can easily be bound (imgaine 40+ regiments) or reduced by shooting to next to none serious damage output.. They are good, sure, but to make them killy you have to spend around 500 points for them.. Kdaai are also nice gainst moist low-medium armored infatry, but when it comes down to armor/several rounds, they burn themself like hell, without incorporating the losses in combat.. They are unfortunately rather fragile, and spending 450+ points to make them work as a reliable hitter is quite as nice as the centaures ;)
But why does anyone and his mother forget about the skullcrusher? I mean, with hellbound upgrade this is an average 10 s8 auto hits beast with T8, W8 and 3+ AS in return.. Most stuff seriously cant harm it, its unbreakable. Sure, it can easily be take out by cavalry or monsters/m infantry. But you dont see cavalry very often these days and the rest can be dealt with, as you can send the destroyer into that stuff. But a Skullcrusher causing 8+ wounds on ironbreakers or something like that each rund without taking much damage in return is just awesome. And thats just before you casted metal spell for 1+ AS on it.. It takes more carefull handling than blocks of BC/Kdaai, but is awesome when it strikes. Combined with a destroyer, it makes a great flank denial part :) It becomes even more attractive in restricted tournaments, where destroyers are bound to heavy other restrictions or where you have a point limit on units (max. 350 points on a single unit beside chars).

4. Infernal Guard
Fireglaives suck compared to the other options, nothing more to say. 30+ Infernal Guards with great weapons and Castellan are a serious enemy (for a core choice!) and good to take, especially if you have a Sorcerer Prophet who can cast hatred on them... 30 S6 Attacks with rerolls are mean... Very mean. If you put the ironcruse icon on the castellan, the IG becomes even more resilent. Definately a must have item on your castellan. Same goes for HW/S. They are more all round and work even without a castellan (give them the gleaming pennant) pretty good. Fair offense, great defense. Both a good to take for all combat lists, but when i go all combat (or just 2 WM), id prefer the GW block for the extra punch. Nothing more to say, good core choice as well. The Blunderbusses are a bit special.. If you know what you are facing, or if there are limited options (restrictions for tournaments) they are definately a good choice to add some more firepower to your armylist without giving up CC abilitys AND they do a decent point bunker. But lets be gentle- id rather do another Magma Cannon than spening the core choice an extremly costly short ranged and unreliable S3 gun. But again, in an restricted area, they do great.

Summary:

-Never go without a Magma and/or Hellcannon. You seriously need it.
- Dont overlook some options like Great Taurus/Skullcrasher. Definately worth to take a look at, even if they require more playskill/army composition.
- Target overload is golden for cc armys. Ever dealt with a destroyer, a skullcrasher, a sorcerer on taurus, 40 IG with GW and castellan AND BC/Kdaai rushing on you at the same time? Just awesome.

Best regards :hat off
16

Groznit Goregut:

I’m sorry if this is threadomancy, but I am really interested in the discussion. I like to think that a list without war machines viable. I played a game and the one bit of advice that I kept getting was “castle up in the corner and blast things with shooting/magic”. yawn Maybe it wins games, but it just sounds boring. I admit that I’m an aggressive player.

Here’s what I’ve thought of for an average 2500 list that is aggressive and fast (for Chaos Dwarfs):

lvl 4 on Lore of Hashut with dispel scroll, Talisman of 4+, charmed shield on Lammasu that is lvl 2 Shadow.

BSB w/ Mas of the Furnace & shield.

Bull Centaur Taur’ruk w/ blackshard, dawnstone, and Warrior Bane

30 Infernal Guard w/ full command and Banner of Slavery.

40 Hobgoblins w/ full command and 2 hand weapons

5 K’Daai Fireborn (wish had points for 6)

3 Bull Centaurs w/ banner, muso, and GW

K’Daai Destroyer

5 Wolf Raiders with spears

The army is fast and can advance. The Dwarfs will be the slowest, but try to set them up as a center and have everything else flanking. The BC hero goes off on his own and is another threat to be dealt with.

The Prophet goes into harassment mode and flies out of charge arcs and hits with Shadow and Hashut spells. The K’Daai wrecks things. The BC are there for anything that can’t be hurt by fire and can back up the Destroyer. The other K’Daai are good vs. infantry. The Wolf Raiders screen or go war machine hunting.

The prophet might be vulnerable to shooting and cannons, but I’ve played a Wyvern lord with OnG for years and know how to maximize terrain, etc to the best of ability. Charmed shield for the cannon. Hope to deal with war machines early or hope that they fire at Destroyer more.

The 40 Hobgoblins give a lot of attacks and won’t worry about Animosity near the BSB. Try to keep the General in range, too. If I can get Hatred off on these guys, that’s a lot of attacks with a score of 3 in everything. Against right opponent (Skaven Slaves, State Troops, etc) this can be nasty. Even against tough troops, the sheer volume of attacks should cause some damage. That’s 28 attacks vs. 20mm that is 5 wide and needing 4+ to hit.

The goal would be to threaten his center with my infantry while my fast stuff hits his flanks. The Prophet and Lammasu can use their spells to blast and cause issues where needed.

17

Method:

Chadwick,
I think the prob is, aside from the destroyer and some good matchups for the fireborn, nothing will really “win” combat.
You’re hobgob unit is tasty, but free company empire troops that are stubborn (detachment rule, coc) do basically the same thing, and aren’t a gamebreaker by any means (well most empire take shadow…but…)

The infernal guard unit is wonderful in holding their points, and can act as a anvil perfectly, but still don’t put out enough damage. and you other troops shouldnt win combat fast enough to bail them out, if you are playing a decent opponent…

I think even one artillery piece would help (dont have to go over board, by any means…), and maybe a bale taursus instead of the lammasu. (i love the lammasu btw, but for what you are trying to do the BT is better…)

18

Groznit Goregut:

Hey Gerry,

I think what tips it is the Shadow magic of the Lammasu. Most spells are able to nerf the enemy unit enough to make a difference. What I think hits hard in the list is the K’Daai Destroyer, the Fireborn, and the Bull Centaurs (they do have GW). If you get something to lower enemy T, those Hobgoblins become a lot more effective. I think it’s a matter of what you face up against. If I went against non-armored infantry, I would do well. I go against Chaos Dwarfs, Ogres, etc, then I will have a hard time.

Hmm…once you start adding in war machines, though, everything else starts to drop. Most things are so expensive in the list it becomes hard to find points for it all.

19

eudaimon:

I have been playing a CC list recently, 2,400 points with, wait for it, no Destroyer. So far so good, just wins to report:

lvl 4 Hashut

Castellan

30 IG

2x 20 hobgobs with bows (ok, I have a bit of shooting)

Siege Giant (just for laughs, damn this guy is random. I did wreck an opponents Hellcannon in one turn once with legbreaker…)

Hellcannon (used as a monster, not to shoot mostly)

3 BCs with GW

Tau’ruk

6 Fireborn

Without the Destroyer, I was severely lacking big killing power, but the rest of the units did a nice-ish job of whittling stuff down. I was reliant on magic though, Breath of Hatred and Flames of Azgorh are amazing.

20

Blackspine:

woah. that’s some great wins sans KD. Congratulations!

It’s a great monster, well priced (seeing as 2 hydras are the same price) and many answers in all comers lists.

Anywho, finally got some proxy games in (doing the paint then assemble thing w/ my CD) and I’ve come up with this rough approximation (ROUGH)

Sorc Prophet: lvl 4.Chalice,etc. Lore of Hashut(if monster mash; Bale or GT)

Castellan: BSB, Mask of Furnace, GW or magic items

Demon Smith: lvl 2. Metal if Lord is on foot, possible fire if mounted. Scroll or Power stone

Hobgoblin Khan: wolf, spear, shield

Hobgoblin Khan: Wolf, spear, mask of eee, shield.

IG: HW/Sh, FC. x25 Razor Banner (Dsmith goes here)

IG: GW. FC x24 (Bsb goes here)

Hobgoblins: Banner, musc. Bows: x 20

Hobgoblins: banner, musc. Bows: x20



Magma Cannon

Death Shrieker (this goes if Taurus/ Bale are in mix)

Bull Centaurs: GW, Banner; gleaming pennant, Musc.



K’daai Destroyer.
There should be a few points hanging around, but I feel that this is a pretty solid combat army. If you can use denied flank and hobgoblins to protect your WMs, it SHOULD protect them vs most chaff.

Lore of Hashut adds much needed damage and control to the list. Most importantly, the signature spell makes the fighting army feasible. it’s one you can squeeze through with minimal dice and after you’ve sucked dice out with other spells and the chalice. I’ve found if you start with it, people huck 4-5 dice at it to stop it.



Metal is too good for our army. Destroy others armor, scaly skin makes even hobgoblins formidable, and enchanted blades and hatred is a nightmare. (tempted to try to match that to Flaming sword of ruin).



I’ve been sold on BC’s as I watched my juggernaut knights with 2 wounds and T5 hold up anything and everything. Granted their AS is better, but less wounds and for cheaper we get more BC’s.

Not only that, but it frees up the field from other chaff. (I hate you great eagles. So so much.) That way the BCs, dwarfs and K’daai can run rampant.

again, this is theory with my few proxy encounters.