Ok, I tried, but couldn’t fit the gist of my question in the thread title.
I suppose this has been gone over before. so please bear with arelative beginner in CD culture.
GW originally and currently favoured chaotic chaos dwarfs, with the big hat Assyrian-style Hashuteers coming in the middle - correct? I checked the site wiki, and my sieve-like memory, but could not identify any fluff which links the chaotics to the big hats. Does this exist?
My take on this could be that (mirroring GW model history) the chaotic types were the earliest, and any still around are survivors some of whom have become mutated in spite of any resilience they once had. The big hats have the GW (and CDO Wiki) Chaos Dwarf history we all know and love.
All that remains is the link between the two, which I’d consider as being tenuous: the chaotics view the big hats as untrustworthy, having resisted excessive mutation and being devoted to technology and Hashut, yet are still impressed by their fighting prowess (when they get down to it and do not employ slaves) and their war machines. They abhor the big hats’ use of slaves, and see it as weak and cowardly and suspicious. The big hats on the other hand see the chaotics as ignorant barbarians, although they make useful allies and (you guessed) slaves.
Chaotics shun those few of their kind taken slaves, as in their opinion they should never have allowed themselves to be captured. Most chaotics taken slaves become submissive to the big hats, and fight as well as any unit of big hat warriors. Some individuals go berserk, and are kept chained. In battle they fight furiously, and usually do not survive as they get killed by attacking monsters, or have to be killed by the bighats themselves after the battle. They are called Harshai, which loosely translated means ‘slayers’…
Chaotics are more commonly seen as warbands of Chaos (with a penchant for Khorne or Nurgle, if any mark is taken; most are Undivided) or as hesitant allies of the Big Hats. The latter course is often of a mercenary nature, sealed by promises of gold, the best battle axes on the continent, or even war machines such as the Hellcannon, the most-coveted demonic engine.
Recent alliances and associations of big hats with chaotics, as well as with chaos warriors, has resulted in some changes to the big hats, some of whom are now sporting arms and armour of a less traditional form and, in rare cases, sporting marks of chaos.
The older style ones were basically just mutated Dwarfs stylistically and were included in the old Realms of Chaos Books, so they were more truly Chaos Dwarfs (as opposed to Chaos Dwarfs who specifically worship Hashut). After that came the Hatters. Then the HellCannon guys in their masks.
I think it’s mostly just a stylistic change in the miniature sculpts rather than any specific reflection on societal changes in CD society, although your take on it is interesting. I never really thought of the different miniature styles as a reflection of a kind of CD multiculturalism.
The “Tome of Corruption” WFRP source book includes rules for playing “norse dwarfs”, wich have the option to choose the class Berzerker. Maybey this is the old dwarfs? Here is what is said about them.
“Some 4,000 years before the birth of Sigmar, the dwarfs were still experimenting with Rune Magic, and some of their kind pushed the boundaries of their craft too far. Though bound through ties of kindship, this lead to great strife and arguing amongst the Dwarfs. Thinking to harness the greater magical energy found in the north near the Chaos Wastes, many of these Dwarfs moved into the northern reaches of the Word’s Edge Mountains until they came to Zorn Uzkul, the Great Skull Land. Fearing this bleak place, many Dearfs retreated back the way they came or travelled further north into Norsca to found new holds, whilst the rest remained in the dark lands. Those who went north founded Kraka Drak (Dragon Hold) in a mountain rich with veins of iron and precious metals.
Earthquakes, Greenskins, and the coming of Skaven thrust the Dwarf Empire into disarray, severing contact with its most far-flung holds. Those not destroyed were forced to contend with their new enviroment and the people that lived there. Not willing to lie down and die, these Norse Dwarfs spread out into the mountains, carving their new holds for their people. Over the centuries, they evolved a culture and language different from that of the Dwarfs that lived further south. In many ways they resemble the Norsemen in expression, arts, and temprament. It’s not certain if these Dwarfs have given over to Chaos as did their Darklands brethren, though it is said they have odd customs.”
In my fluff they used to wear BIG hats in the ‘golden age’ of their timeline (original title I know). This was when all the major cities were built. Then something significant happened and the CD became a lot more serious and doom laden.
So my fluff actually represents what happened to the army of Chaos Dwarfs historically. I should have had a long period where they were banned from fighting in all major conflicts as their armies were illegal.
But Wallacer answered your question, it’s simply a radical change of style (as far as we will ever know).
Fillipicusius, I always thought Norse Dwarfs were just Dwarfs who lived higher up north. Norse Dwarfs aren’t the older version of the Dwarfs we know nowadays at least. At first, Dwarfs entered the World’s Edge Mountains and began to spread their kingdom northwarts. This went well, till the time of Chaos. The Dwarfs were cut off from the Dwarfs who lived higher up north, which weren’t well defended by big holds or ancestors protecting them - these became Chaos Dwarfs. I do know there’s a hold ‘to the north’ though, you mention it already; Kraka Draka. I don’t know how it survived while the Dwarfs we now know as the Chaos ones didn’t, but they did. They live in the Kislev-area and they kind of mixed the two cultures to a whole new one; ‘normal’ Dwarfs even have trouble understanding these Norse Dwarfs.
Anyway, I think they’re just the same as other Dwarfs except for living higher north and having a (bit) different culture.
There is no fluff connecting either of the two major styles. There were chaos-worshipping dwarfs, then there were Hashut-worshipping dwarfs and the chaos-worshipping dwarfs were never mentioned again.
Well, not quite true. There are the odd references to Dwarfs who worship the Chaos powers both in WFB and WFRP. The most famous (and recurring) name to come to mind is Grungi Ironheart.
Hmmm, if i understand the tome of corruption/realm of chaos books then this is how the case is:
The “old” chaos dwarfs are simply dwarfs who have turned, or been corrupted, to chaos. Norse, Big Hat Chaos or normal dwars. They don’t have big societys in the north or anything, they are working just like the human champions of chaos.
@Hrothgar: Huh? Kislev area? The Norse is from Norsca, if i have gotten it right.
Interesting - thanks for the comments guys. Do you see ‘the two types’ working together, or completely isolated from each other? The Hellcannon tends to blur the distinction a bit - chaotic dwarfs with war machines.
The Hellcannon Chaos Dwarfs are the same race as the 4th/5th Edition Assyrian-inspired Chaos Dwarfs. You can tell from the beards - the only difference is that they don’t have the hats. To the best of my knowledge, there is a continuous thread of background from the Dwarfs of Zharr-Naggrund to the ones crewing the Hellcannon. They’re not just Chaos-worshipping Dwarfs who fight with Chaos Warriors.
In the original WH fiction, Dwarfs experienced as wide a degree of mutation as humans - Thymbrin Snakebeard, for example, literally had a snake jutting out of his chin! By contrast, the Chaos Dwarfs represent a much more unified body of mutations - the bull features, the Curse of Stone, etc. - and this course is somewhat supported in further WFRP material, noting that Dwarf Mutants are likely to express such mutations. The question then, is whether any Dwarf Mutant would essentially be physically identical to a Chaos Dwarf - in which case it is plausible for one to venture out into the Darklands and join his "cousins."
Then again, in the original presentation Chaos Dwarfs were simply Dwarfs allied with Chaos as humans are allied with Chaos - you had short, squat Chaos Warriors, for example, who were essentially Dwarf heroes and Champions of Chaos. Since regular Chaos Warriors don’t have particular problems dealing with Chaos Dwarfs for Hellcannons and the like, it seems likely that Dwarfen Chaos Warriors would likewise be open to such negotiations, possibly based on old ties of kinship…provided the talk stayed away from religion.
Of course, one could easily imagine the haughty Sorcerer-Priests of Hashut looking down at the poor, mutated dwarfs serving in the retinue of some uncivilized, unwashed Kurgan Chaos Warrior from the steppes, too.
I think the biggest question is whether “Chaotic Dwarfs” even exist in the current background. Since the introduction of the Chaos Dwarfs as a unique race, any reference to “Chaos Dwarfs” (with the exception of a couple of insane individuals who rebelled against the Western Dwarfs) has been to the big hats living in the Plain of Zharr. Even the ones that now work with Chaos Warriors are Dawi’Zharr, not just Dwarf renegades, and I’m not aware of there being any other types of “Chaos Dwarf” out there in current official background.
In all the ways that matter, the two types of Chaos Dwarf aren’t even the same race, and the older kind have been retconned away for all intents and purposes. I don’t mean to denigrate those who collect those figures or who prefer that version of Chaos Dwarfs, of course, but I think the intention is that Chaos Dwarfs have always been the guys with the hats and the curly beards who worship Hashut.
