Coopervisor:
Talking about the Legion of Azgorh list, which is the better mount for a Sorcerer?
I’m going off the stats/points in the Storm of Magic book, so not sure if they have slight differences to the Throne book.
Is it a simple case of Great Taurus for extra melee power and Lammasu for greater magic power/resistance?
What are people’s preferences on using the two mounts?
Sanguinarian:
If it’s the Storm of Magic Lammasu then I can see the access to shadow magic being a big selling point. While I’m not generally a fan of mounting wizards, I’ll certainly consider a lammasu mount for the hexes.
Baggronor:
Is it a simple case of Great Taurus for extra melee power and Lammasu for greater magic power/resistance?Pretty much, I think. The Lammasu should be taking Shadow, obviously, as it will be a massive help for the army (str 9 IG?:)).
What are people's preferences on using the two mounts?The first time I play a 15000pt game, I'll let you know how he did. Until then, I can't possibly afford him, my army is tiny.
zhatan87:
The GT in the list is cheaper than in SoM whereas the lammasu is more expensive.
You should include the bale taurus version in your Pro V Cons.
I find the taurus pretty cheap, the only drawback is that the place for your lord isn’t in close combat… But I have thought about him, because it’s another threat that your opponent must deal with.
Maybe I will go for the bale taurus one.
The lammasu isn’t cheap for a level 1 sorcerer. It becomes great in SoM games though.
Both of them have a good reason to play them : if you don’t play any infernal guard or ironsworn, and lots of hobgoblins, you can still play a lord without having to take care about the contempt rule…
Borin Sourfist:
I’m leaning towards the Great Taurus myself. This is why:
I like the idea of the Sorceror-prophet on a monster, it gives him much greater mobility to get where I need him and extends his stand-fast distance but the clincher for me is that it stops the IG units being massive points sinks and spreads the threats around the table better.
I think the Sorceror Prophet is a combat character, to a certain extent. He has 3 attacks and comes with an acceptable armour save and a magic weapon. 3 of the random powers of the weapon are directly used in combat and the breath weapon can be, so you have a pretty good chance of rolling an ability that will help in combat. Couple this with the Taurus’ Frenzy, Hatred, Blazing body auto-hits, Breath Weapon auto-hits and Thunderstomp Auto-hits this combo can do a significant amount of damage. The Sorceror also has access to hexes and augments that will make him (and the Taurus) do even more.
I’d keep him as cheap as possible. My preferred set-up would be: Sorceror-prophet (level 3 only), Great Taurus, Charmed Shield, Ironcurse Icon, 420 Points. He’s worth 520 victory points to your opponent as he’s also the General so he needs to contribute 600 victory points or more before he dies. This is the key point though…I expect him to die. That doesn’t mean I’ll use him rashly, I will take care that he doesn’t get any easy cannon shots to the face, but I’m not going to hold back. He has multiple ways to contribute to VPs, either by killing things himself, running fleeing units down with his superior movement, by augmenting or hexing other units or by preventing my units fleeing from combat. There are so many ways that a Sorceror-prophet can die, spells, cannons, killing blows and some self-inflicted ones like miscasts, especially ones that are compounded by the Sorceror’s curse. If you try and account for them all you’ll spend silly amounts of points and take away from other areas of your army. Accept he’s going to die, keep him cheap, use him with cunning and get your points worth in multiple ways.
I love the Lammasu, I love his fluff and I’m very fond of my old model, but he costs more and having 2 casters in one place, 2 models that can miscast and less combat power means that I’d want to spend even more points on protection and things like the Earthing Rod to make sure that both models are casting as much as possible. This pushes up the points even more. The 50 point difference between the Lammasu and Great Taurus is half a Deathshrieker already, and I like to have as many toys on the table as I can fit in a given points limit. I would consider the Lammasu for games over 2500 points or if I fancy going for a really magic-heavy theme (which is very tempting), but for general games I’ll be taking the Taurus with budget Sorceror if I want a monster.
khedyarl:
So, do we know if the sorceror-prophet weapon rule goes away if you take a magic weapon? Or does it work like a choppa, where the rule is applied to the magic weapon as well?
Baggronor:
I'd keep him as cheap as possible. My preferred set-up would be: Sorceror-prophet (level 3 only), Great Taurus, Charmed Shield, Ironcurse Icon, 420 Points. He's worth 520 victory points to your opponent as he's also the General so he needs to contribute 600 victory points or more before he dies. This is the key point though.....I expect him to die.This is an awful way to look at it though - at the point he is over 400pts, he cannot be considered expendable. With Steadfast, he will very rarely directly net you 600VPs or more, and even if he does, its still not a good way to judge his effectiveness. If you're going to take him, you may as well bite the bullet and tool him up to the max so he has the best chance possible of doing the business. Lets face it, if he dies, there's a good chance it'll cost you the game anyway, regardless if he costs 400pts or 500.
Or does it work like a choppa, where the rule is applied to the magic weapon as well?Just a guess but I would imagine it is lost if he takes a magic weapon. I'd rather he didn't have it to begin with, really.
Borin Sourfist:
he cannot be considered expendable.....(edited)........ Lets face it, if he dies, there's a good chance it'll cost you the game anyway, regardless if he costs 400pts or 500.I never said 'expendable'. I said that I expect him to die. That is different, Warhammer has many ways to kill both Wizards and Monsters, no matter how well protected they are. I am then not excessively disappointed if he dies and I'm not hamstrung in my decision making through fear of losing him. All that matters is that he contributes his worth before dying, because that's basically what Warhammer is. You and your opponent take equal sized armies (most of the time) and to win (most of the time) you need to ensure that your points kill more of his points (preferably while beer is consumed and banter is exchanged).
With Steadfast, he will very rarely directly net you 600VPs or more, and even if he does, its still not a good way to judge his effectiveness.While I agree that purely using victory points is a limited way to judge a unit's effectiveness you seem to imply that I'm only looking at combat potential. I'm not, I'm also considering the effect his hexes and augments can have on other units and his LD bubble in preventing units from fleeing (and coughing up more VPs) as well as more esoteric factors such as his mobility and threat range giving my opponent more to think about and more room to make mistakes. It all adds up.
Baggronor:
Do you honestly expect to go through a game without losing any units?Happens regularly with my Dwarfs :) And my VCs. But its probably not a realistic expectation in general, certainly not for LoA.
Sanguinarian:
Anyway, I don't want to start an argument, my wording in my previous post seems a little blunt, I was tired after work. Apologies if it seemed rude.It does bring up a fair point though. I imagine the No. 1 factor for people deciding against a mount is that it becomes a very juicy target (reason No. 2 is cost).
Baggronor
Borin Sourfist:
Don’t worry Baggronor, I didn’t think you sounded rude. I can deal with blunt honesty, that’s fine. I just took the opportunity to clarify my thoughts a bit.
I can well understand that my attitude to the General may be seen as a bit ‘strange’, but I just find that keeping my characters as barebones as possible and using tactical play to maximise their strengths and minimise their weaknesses works best. Piling on the upgrades seems like false economy to me, even with high value characters…especially ones that can blow themselves up!
ChungEssence:
Different strokes for different folks.
I personally like your Sorc/Taurus getup. Definitely has the potential to massively swing a big combat with the breath/thunderstomp.
I personally have had success running Iron Breakers in my dwarf army. It’s all in how the army operates as a whole.
Just got the book last night… happy!
Groznit Goregut:
I have to admit that I loved flying around the table in 7th Ed with my Warlord on Wyvern. He was very tactical by just just offering flank charges and such. He could also smash in on weaker support units. Sure, you don’t see that as much in 8th, but they still are there. A prophet on Great Taurus (or Bale Taurus) could smash some smaller units on their own. Or…if a unit gets stuck in with a dwarf or Steadfast Hobgoblin unit, the Taurus in the flank could be quite mean and turn the tide.
I will fully admit that cannons are the worst thing to face. They can kill the mount out from under you. Thankfully, though, they are only with two armies. You will see them at tournaments, but you might not face them. Even then, if the mount does die in combat, you still have to kill the Prophet to get the points for him. He’s not auto dead if he loses the mount. You can save him and he can still cast spells.
I’ve got a question about the Taurus rule of -1 to wound. That means on the wound to roll, right? So…a cannon fails to wound on a 1 or a 2. That’s 1/3 the time and much more likely to happen. Besides cannons, that rule does reduce the chance of him being killed by lesser shooting. Even T4 handguns will have a hard time.
What happens if you take a Prophet with the Lore of Fire on a Great Taurus? Remember that he heals d3 wounds went having a Lore of Fire spell cast on it. While you can’t rely on the ignorance of your opponents, you can cast 2 augment spells on yourself to get those heals. If a cannon hits, it will have to roll high to kill it. You have a good chance of getting those spells off and healing the guy up. Your opponent might not think of this when you cast it the first time, and that might make a big difference. First turn you get into a position to charge the war machines. You get blasted with a cannon. You cast the spells and your opponent lets it through because it’s not a big deal. You get healed. Then you charge the cannon to take it out. No more thread from that.
So, Lore of Fire can heal the Taurus when needed, but are the spells worth while? You can buff other units, too, which helps. The damage spells can be good. The Sig spell is really not bad at doing some damage to some units. If you are also planning on going into combat, you can weaken a medium unit up when you cast a 3d6 fireball on it. The, charge in, do damage, and Thuderstomp and I can see you smashing someone without being taken out in return. Oh, sure, it greatly depends on picking the right units, but really not a bad choice. The Fire Lore can really help reduce things on the flanks, which is where I see a Great Taurus doing it’s thing, anyways.
Personally, I think it’s a bad idea to use a Great Taurus because Chaos Dwarfs are not going to have a lot of units and all the support stuff is going to be a real problem. This will be on the flanks and handle a lot of stuff that we can’t handle too well. What are you going to do when you see a Orc and Goblin unit with a ton of chariots, pump wagons, and Mangler Squigs? This guy can really clean up. Terror on the flanks is still pretty darn good. It’s usually away from the enemy General and BSB, so no re-rolls. Flank units don’t always have high Ld. Enemy sometimes fail their rolls. I’ve taken a lot of stuff out with my Arachnarok on the flanks this way. You can also redirect, too. Make something small flee and redirect into something else. Making a unit take a Ld test or be WS1 can be pretty devastating, too.
Let’s look at the Lammasu. Not as tough and not as many wounds, but also causes Terror. That helps charging little stuff. I can also see the MR being quite handy. 4+ for the beasty and probably 2+ for the prophet. I could even see the Prophet doing well in challenges with enemy characters not getting to use magic items and the mount joining in. Depends on who you are fighting, but not bad.
I think the Lammasu really comes into it’s own as a mobile platform for your caster, though. The extra spells you get from him are great. He can zip around and
The Lore of Shadow would be just awesome to use. The only one that isn’t good is Steed of Shadows. Even the Pendulum could be good on the flanks of an enemy army. Reducing a unit’s Toughness is great for Doom Rockets, like Baggronor suggests. Really, who wouldn’t it be good for? I could even see using the stat hexing spells on someone that you can then charge into combat against. A support unit with Great Weapons might not be so tough when you reduce their S by a few. Or some other support unit you can now be in combat with and not fear it so much.
S9 Chaos Dwarfs is good with MindRazor, but can be situational. Imagine casting it on a horde of Hobgoblins with 2 hand weapons. Against a standard 5 x 20mm unit, that would be 28 S6 attacks! That is much more impressive when you want to grind out a unit. If you take Lore of Hashut and give the unit Hatred, that can be very, very viscous.
I’ve also just thought of a sneaky trick. Take a cheap Khan on a wolf in your army list. Keep him within 18" of your Lammasu. You can get up in the face of the enemy and cast all the close range spells you want, but when the Lammasu casts a Shadow spell, you can use the Lore Attribute and swap places with the Khan on wolf! That will get your Caster out of the way of any units and your Khan can just flee. Pretty darn tricky!
Lore of Hashut with any of the flying mounts is also really good. You really need to be in short range with your caster for those spells. This lets you get close enough and cause all sorts of issues. The same can be said for Death, too. You can get close enough to take out key characters early in the game. That’s terrible for some armies. It would also give you more power dice to feed your other casters (or other spells).
Alright…enough rambling at this point. I think there are a lot of valid strategies with flying mounts. There are a lot of pros and there are cons. Cannons are the worst thing, but only used in two armies. You could go to a tournament and not ever face an army with cannons or a lot of shooting that could hurt it.
Spikes:
I could even see the Prophet doing well in challenges with enemy characters not getting to use magic items and the mount joining in. Depends on who you are fighting, but not bad.Why do you say this? Does the prophet have some kind of built-in immunity to magical items? Could you quote the page where this is written please?
Groznit Goregut
rabotak:
no, but the lammasu does- see SoM for reference.I could even see the Prophet doing well in challenges with enemy characters not getting to use magic items and the mount joining in. Depends on who you are fighting, but not bad.Why do you say this? Does the prophet have some kind of built-in immunity to magical items? Could you quote the page where this is written please?
Groznit Goregut
Spikes
Groznit Goregut:
great write-up grotsnik! have some slaves! btw. i havent thought of the -1 to wound / cannon issue, i'll have to remember that!Thanks!
rabotak