[Archive] Question: Why axes/hammers?

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
21

Ishkur Cinderhat:

Hammers are used in the forge. Dwarves are craftsmen, thus feel at home with hammers. Axes work like hammers, mostly. Swords are not.  Dwarves like the feel of heavy metal in their hands!!

GRNDL
I agree to the "tools of the trade" argument. As much as a hammer is used to beat the metal, an axe is used to chop the wood to fire the forge. For me that's pretty much where it would come from, fluff wise.
22

Tarrakk Blackhand:

The hammer/axe thing really is a 6th ed thing to further hammer in their image.
Any pun inteneded? LOL!
23

Baggronor:

When you’re short and blunt, so should your weapon be :cheers

24

snowblizz:

The hammer/axe thing really is a 6th ed thing to further hammer in their image.
Any pun inteneded? LOL!


Tarrakk Blackhand
You know it! :hat off
25

Kera foehunter:

lol Baggronor

This message was automatically appended because it was too short.

26

dedwrekka:

Hammers are used in the forge. Dwarves are craftsmen, thus feel at home with hammers. Axes work like hammers, mostly. Swords are not.  Dwarves like the feel of heavy metal in their hands!!

GRNDL
I agree to the "tools of the trade" argument. As much as a hammer is used to beat the metal, an axe is used to chop the wood to fire the forge. For me that's pretty much where it would come from, fluff wise.


Ishkur Cinderhat
The only problem I have with that idea is that axes aren't made for that kind of dual purpose use. A blacksmith's hammer would do alright being used as a weapon, it's meant to beat on metal anyways. A carpenter or forester's axe, however, would shatter, chip, and break as you were using it, after a few parry and hitting armor a couple of times, you'd basically be using a hammer.

I'd also put in that it'd be harder for a dwarf to get a good style with a sword. Swordsmanship usually involves fairly quick motions when either attempting a parry or moving back into position for a strike. It would also hurt them that they're not as quick on their feet as well as the fact that using a sword that's over half your size (Which would be about the size of an Arming sword for a human) comes with certain limitations in how you can wield it.
27

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Wouldn’t the swords be hard for them to use on a movement of 3?

28

WhyNotCrashDifferently?:

Additionally, when attacking someone in armor(specificly heavy armor), a hammer or axe (preferably of the pick kind) are more effective than a traditional sword. The power behind the stroke will break bones and dent armor easily. Knights used to be in such heavy armor that they'd have a tough time getting up after falling off a horse, so a weapon like a hammer could be used to knock one off fairly easily by unbalancing him (such as the "Goedendag", which was essentially a long hammer). A pike worked in a similar manner, either killing the horse, or simply pushing the rider off.

dedwrekka
All true, but Dwarfs main enemy are Greenskins...and Greenskins aren't known for there armour. so they wouldn't feel the need to pierce all that much, and a few broken bones would hardly stop an Orc that easy (unless a rib punctured a lung or something)


Ammrik Gunrock
Aye, but with some muscle behind it an axe/hammer/pick will mess up an Orc as well as a sword, if not better. What would a Dwarf with a sword do better than one with an axe? Sword-Dwarf would probably do worse for reasons already stated.

Axes/hammers/picks are catch-all weapons, and that they double as tools makes them practical weapons for a practical people. Even the scimitars of the big hat era encourage slashing attacks more in line with an axe blow than the fancyness of a straight blade. Of course, the Marauder range messes this all up, but they also have maces so I forgive them.

In spite of all this, and the racial stereotyping and Dwarf tradition and myriad other reasons already mentioned in this thread, I'm totally including swords (straight and curved) and maces in my lineup for variety's sake.
29

Khan!:

I dunno about the assertion that swords are all about finesse and being tall. What about stabbing swords like the gladius? Seems to me that, in terms of practicality (and in situations like tunnel-fighting for example), a shortsword-armed stabby shield wall might be very effective.

Also, in my opinion since it’s pretty much accepted that dwarfs use axes and hammers, the nature of Chaos Dwarfs might suggest that they would subvert tradition by using swords (even long curvy ones) just to piss off their goody-goody cousins.

30

Revlid:

The reason axes and hammers are so popular amongst Dwarfs is that they can be used for other things - the forge, or chopping wood. The fact that some of the higher-quality varieties of these weapons are obviously not meant to be used in this way illustrates the rather symbolic and uncompromising nature of Dwarf society - tradition dictates that Dwarfs use axes and hammers, and so they use axes and hammers.

It is notable that swords are the only weapon that is not used for anything else - even spears are cheap and can be used for hunting. This is why they were considered a noble weapon; you’d have to be an aristocrat to be able to afford a weapon with no secondary purpose. Swords also have a rather unpleasant association with Elves in the Dwarfen mind - it’s the same reason they don’t use choppas, quality issues aside.

On a more practical level, the long length of Dwarf arms compared to their body, as well as their low centre of gravity, means that hammers and axes allow for more power behind a blow with less overswing than would normally be the case.

Finally, it should be noted that Chaos Dwarfs do use a wider variety of close-combat weapons than Dwarfs. While axes, hammers and bludgeons are common, officers are often seen to use scimitars or war-whips. Hell, many Chaos Dwarf homebrews include spears as an option.

31

Willmark:

Tolkein for all the reasons mentioned.

32

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Tomb kinds also use axes…just thought I’d mention it. :smiley:

33

Swissdictator:

Well my TK all have the scimitars… both TK style scimitars and the ones found on both the VC and TK skellie sprues.

I do like Baggronor’s explanation though!

34

Tarrakk Blackhand:

I could use those axes for my Hobbo’s.

35

Kera foehunter:

well they don’t have two handed swords!!! but if they did that would be better

then they wouldn’t need axes

36

dedwrekka:

I dunno about the assertion that swords are all about finesse and being tall.  What about stabbing swords like the gladius?  Seems to me that, in terms of practicality (and in situations like tunnel-fighting for example), a shortsword-armed stabby shield wall might be very effective.

Also, in my opinion since it's pretty much accepted that dwarfs use axes and hammers, the nature of *Chaos* Dwarfs might suggest that they would subvert tradition by using swords (even long curvy ones) just to piss off their goody-goody cousins.

Khan!
I know they don't have to be tall to use a sword, just pointing out that a sword would be much harder to use with a more compact form like a dwarf. In general it's more of a deft weapon, even the much larger swords require some good foot and hand work (not to mention a good clearance around you). I hadn't thought about the Gladius. Would work well with a dwarf shield line, not good for much else though (Good for stabbing, but blunt on the sides).

Don't get me wrong, a dwarf could swing it alright, but they'd be easy picking for anyone with a couple feet on them and a little training.

Axes and hammers just seem better weapons for a people better known for their arm strength than their quickness or strength of feet. I can't see the dwarfs (even chaos ones) as being great sword fighters.
Scimitars I see even less unless we're talking Bull-centaurs, as the Scimitar is a horse-back weapon. Created to use the power of the charge in the long sweeping arcs of the weapon. The shape doesn't resist the flow of air around it as a straight sword might.

Halberds, spears, pole-axes, tridents, pikes, javelins. I could see these as being good chaos dwarf weapons. Gives them reach to the enemy. When you're facing off against hordes or cavalry, as the Chaos Dwarfs are against slave rebellions and trade caravans respectively, these weapons work well. In both cases the enemy drives themselves into several lines of weapons before even getting to the ranks of the Chaos Dwarfs, which is where a shield wall would work well. Romans used the tactic against the gauls and goths quite well.

I could almost see the Chaos Dwarfs as using tactics similar to the land portion of Thermopylae in Zharr-Naggrund during a slave uprising. Putting several units of Immortals in choke points that have been built into the city on the way up to the top or bottom levels. Using longer reach weapons to deter the enemy reaching your lines, or making them pay to do so.

On a slave raid I'd see weapons like nets and man-catchers, possibly early grenades, entering the arsenal. Things that would disable an enemy rather than kill. They'd still have to kill any determined resistance (soldiers make poor slaves), however.
37

Kera foehunter:

How come cd don’t have two handed sword or great axes ??

38

Willmark:

A great axe (historically speaking) as well is two handed.

39

cornixt:

I dunno about the assertion that swords are all about finesse and being tall.  What about stabbing swords like the gladius?  Seems to me that, in terms of practicality (and in situations like tunnel-fighting for example), a shortsword-armed stabby shield wall might be very effective.

Also, in my opinion since it's pretty much accepted that dwarfs use axes and hammers, the nature of *Chaos* Dwarfs might suggest that they would subvert tradition by using swords (even long curvy ones) just to piss off their goody-goody cousins.

Khan!
I know they don't have to be tall to use a sword, just pointing out that a sword would be much harder to use with a more compact form like a dwarf. In general it's more of a deft weapon, even the much larger swords require some good foot and hand work (not to mention a good clearance around you). I hadn't thought about the Gladius. Would work well with a dwarf shield line, not good for much else though (Good for stabbing, but blunt on the sides).

dedwrekka
My experience of being a short guy with handweapons, there really wasn't much difference between any of the types of weapons when attacking. Sword-fights are rarely as complex as the ones on tv, someone gets hit in the first 20 seconds, and after that they are very likely to lose (especially if they have been cut by a real weapon rather than the bludgeoning blunt things we used). Axes, clubs and swords are nearly all just about making contact with the enemy. An axe is much easier to defend yourself with, due to the shape, whereas a sword can be thrust. Nimbleness seemed to only have an effect for the defender, so axes are an advatage if you aren't nimble.
40

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Halberds, spears, pole-axes, tridents, pikes, javelins. I could see these as being good chaos dwarf weapons.

dedwrekka
Can the CD's actually use these weapons, rule wise? I have a customer who wants his CD's to have spears and every time we talk about it, I think that there might be a problem, (rule wise) but I don't say anything.