Thommy H:
Isn’t it from the Tome of Corruption? I think it was a WFRP source book.
Chaos Dwarfs don’t have runes because runic magic was taught to them by the Ancestor Gods. Whoever abandoned who, the Chaos Dwarfs replaced the worship of the Ancestor Gods with worship of Hashut, so no longer use the runes. Simple as that.
metro_gnome:
indeed…
the daemon prince fluff was edited from the WHRP… but before the tome of corruption…
in any event I do not think it was published (for whatever reason) and I don’t know of any hard copy form…
Xander:
So where did we get it then? How do we know it was cut? I am so shaky when it comes to the original source, how do we know it is not fan-made, for example?
metro_gnome:
well it was written by the guy who wrote the WHRP book… Gallagher I believe…
and we know it was cut from the book… we don’t know much else… like “why” or “when”…
but it isn’t fanfic… thats for sure…
Lord Zarkov:
Didn’t it get cut because the Studio thought it was too explicit (especially some bits at the beginning of the full document)? I vaugely recall an explanation of some sort about it at the top of the full document.
Edit: Here’s a link to the whole thing Realm of Chaos History
cornixt:
Not so much “cut” as never put in. If we put stock in everything ever written for CDs and not published then we’d have a lot more conflicting fluff. Several of the WD guys have written other histories, but Gav didn’t like it so it was never published. The only thing about this passage is that it was released into the wild (although it is probably still owned by GW like all work done for them is now) and it wasn’t even written by a big CD contributer, so it has much weight as fanfic.
A rune is just a letter, so it is confusing to talk about the CD alphabet at the same time as the Dwarfen magic system.
Xander:
Forgive me for all my questions. How did this get online? Was it leaked, or what?
Thommy H:
One of the guys who did a lot of stuff like that (background books and such like) was on Warseer. I have no idea if it’s the same guy.
cornixt:
Just read the guy’s website. It was written by a guy (not a GW employee) who worked for a publisher, with the aim of proving they could do a good job for the WFRP Chaos sourcebook. They didn’t get the job. he did do the Dwarf book though.
dedwrekka:
ok, but if I good remember.. Dwarf use runes always..
Because of when chaos spilled across the old world. The Dwarfs didn't learn runecraft until they were taught it by Grungni, by that time the dwarfs of the great skull land, chaos dwarfs, were already corrupted. So the Chaos Dwarfs would have never learned to craft runes the way dwarfs did.
dedwrekka
also, before they go to skull land.. (maybe I mistake)
So why CD haven't got any "runesmiths" ?
Why can't use any.. corrupted runes?
Balseraph
In my knowledge..
Dwarfs are magic resistance in some %.. - they have runes..
CD wasrewarded with powerful sorcerous abilities
and we can't write:It would be unfair for us to have both rune items and magicDwarfs are Dwarfs..
first have only runes and have resistance to magic
second gain magic power from his God , but runes also have by race... i think..
Nowhere is write so CD has lose their runes ability.......
Balseraph
The latest Dwarf Fluff doesn't support that, in fact it directly disputes it. The Dwarfs only learned runes from what are now called the "Ancestor Gods" after they emerged from their holds to find the land changed by chaos. By that time the Dwarfs of the Great Skull Land were already turned into Chaos Dwarfs. The Ancestor Gods didn't become so until long after this had all happened, at the time they were just the powerful leaders of the Dwarfs.If this paragraph is straight out of the book, then it seems they had runesmiths.
ye gods no!
Grungi, Grimnir, and Valaya all abandoned us to the Chaos Incursion... or so sayeth Hashut...
time to dust off the WRPG "daemon prince" fluff..."
In a final desperate act against their now debased rulers, the remaining Runesmiths revolted against Hashut�s new order. But, the corruption of the Dark Lands Dwarfs had even affected the power of the Runesmiths. The battle raged for months, but the Sorcerer-Priests were too strong. The Runesmiths were broken and enslaved, while the more powerful among them were sacrificed to Hashut after several days of ritual torture. With the last vestiges of their former culture removed, the corruption of the Dark Lands Dwarfs was completed. Hashut rewarded them with tusks to mark them as his own, while he granted the most devout cloven hoofs and horns.
metro_gnome
But I prefer the seperation from our distant cousins. Makes the CD army interesting.
Doogle
its interesting because in the undead rulebook a couple back there was a magic sword iirc which was made by a dwarf runesmith corrupted by chaos - chaos runeblade i thinkCorrupted dwarf and Chaos Dwarf are quite different. The dwarf who created the runefangs, Ghal Maraz, and Sigmar's Armor spent time as a corrupted dwarf afterwards, following a dark will without knowledge of it, and made the Nemesis Crown, but wasn't a chaos dwarf.
This_Is_My_Boomstick!!
Xander:
Just read the guy's website. It was written by a guy (not a GW employee) who worked for a publisher, with the aim of proving they could do a good job for the WFRP Chaos sourcebook. They didn't get the job. he did do the Dwarf book though.Ahh, so it was basically proposed Fluff.
cornixt
metro_gnome:
the dwarf book doesn’t dispute this fluff…
the dwarfs of the Uzkul Zorn were not Chaos until they were corrupted by Hashut…
Hashut was driven away by Khorne… and this allowed th good guys stem the spread of chaos…
and Grimnir journeyed to the collapsed Warpgate to seal it with his bare hands… etc…
and told his crew he was gonna do it… didn’t tell the beards in Uzkul Zorn…
they got trapped underground for centuries… and later found Hashuts prison and set him free…
and that is when the Chaos dwarfs were corrupted…
so they had plenty of time to have had learned runecraft and there is no contradiction here…
Xander:
Knowing the true original of the Hashut fluff, I don’t see how it could be taken seriously. It was essentially a portfolio piece to try and get a job. This was not produced or funded by GW at all. 
Hashut’s Blessing:
If that fluff were canon, it actually agrees with the dwarf book when you read them. The fluff says there were runesmiths (which the dwarf book doesn’t say disappeared). The dwarf book says that no hero like the original three arose when the chaos dwarfs became corrupted and the fluff says the chaos dwarfs were abandoned by the ancestor gods (another concurrence there. They both say that the heroes had become Gods and not helped). Then, it says the runesmiths (the ones with the knowledge of how to use magical runes) were KILLED.
However, if it was only a proposed piece of fluff by a freelance writer (correct me politely if I;m worng), then it isn’t offical. Either way, the chaos dwarfs seem to prefer daemonbinding if you follow the hellcannon or just using magic and they seem to prefer science anyway. It’s more a case of runes have become obselete, except perhaps for (magical) weapons and armour etc, but as to why we don’t use runes in the rules system, it’s because we don’t use the variation included in the dwarfs runic magic for such things.
That’s my take, anyway.
torn:
We might possibly use runes, but not in the craft of items, but in daemon-binding and sorcery itself.
metro_gnome:
well he’s wasn’t freelance… he worked for hogshead…
who had bought the rights to WHRP at the time… and he did write their dwarf book…
he does not say why the article was rejected from inclusion in RoC…
just the same story about GW not wanting to have events of the time known…
to which the chaos dwarfs a minor insignificant wrinkle…
this is more about keeping the ultimate fate of the old ones secret…
but it doesn’t contradict the dwarf fluff, WDP:CD, the Hellcannon or anything else…
and to the question of the OP: “What happened to the CD Runesmiths?”…
the answer is still: “they killed them all”…
Hashut’s Blessing:
Okay, so, as I thought, my knowledge of the creator etc was false (cheers Metro) and my assumption as to the lack of runes was correct (again, cheers Metro).
torn: That’s partly what I meant as well, when I mentioned the hellcannon.
dedwrekka:
If that fluff were canon, it actually agrees with the dwarf book when you read them. The fluff says there were runesmiths (which the dwarf book doesn't say disappeared).The Dwarf book says that they didn't know runes before then, so there wouldn't have been runesmiths before they knew runes.
Hashut's Blessing
The dwarf book says that no hero like the original three arose when the chaos dwarfs became corrupted and the fluff says the chaos dwarfs were abandoned by the ancestor gods (another concurrence there. They both say that the heroes had become Gods and not helped)The three heroes, Grungni, Grimnir, and Valaya, didn't become gods until much after the fact. Only much after chaos had been beaten back to the chaos wastes did Grimnir lay down a single axe to his son Morgrim and stalk into the wastes to find the portal. Grungni and Valaya disappeared, and after that time the dwarfs knew them as the Ancestor Gods. Which is much after the Chaos Dwarfs were corrupted. In the Dwarf book, Grungni and Valaya didn't disappear until the Golden Age, after Chaos had been beaten back and the elfs had trapped the chaos magics in their vortex. They're known as the Ancestor Gods because they were real Dwarfs at a time, that time was during the Comming of Chaos, and the Chaos Dwarfs never knew them, as real beings and certainly not as Ancestor Gods.
but it doesn't contradict the dwarf fluff, WDP:CD, the Hellcannon or anything else...The Chaos Dwarfs never had Runesmiths according to the Dwarf Fluff. Runes were only taught to dwarfs bu Grungni as a means of defense against chaos after chaos had swept the land and only after the Dwarfs had come out of their mountain holds. This places it at a time only after the coming of chaos and after the Dwarfs of the Great Skull Land had become Chaos Dwarfs (During the time the other dwarfs were hiding in their holds).
and to the question of the OP: "What happened to the CD Runesmiths?"...
the answer is still: "they killed them all"...
metro_gnome
Hashut’s Blessing:
The Chaos Dwarfs never had Runesmiths according to the Dwarf Fluff. Runes were only taught to dwarfs bu Grungni as a means of defense against chaos after chaos had swept the land and only after the Dwarfs had come out of their mountain holds. This places it at a time only after the coming of chaos and after the Dwarfs of the Great Skull Land had become Chaos Dwarfs (During the time the other dwarfs were hiding in their holds).Actually, it says that the Ancestor gods were still in physical form (and I believe had taught them runic magic) when the Chaos dwarfs bcame Chaos dwarfs.
dedwrekka
In "The Orphans" bit about the chaos dwarfs it says that they didn't have leaders like Grungni, Valaya, or Grimnir that appeared. I fail to see how they could have had runesmiths if the dwarfs were only taught to use runes by Grungni after the coming of chaos, and how the Chaos Dwarfs could have known runes if they didn't know Grungni.Actually, it says that these three Ancestor gods (it states ancestor gods, I believe) didn't arise, nor did any hero like them, to lead the dwarfs away from Chaos. This, therefore, means that the gods did exist by this point, as gods, but they just didn;t stop the Chaos dwarfs going off to the Darklands.
dedwrekka
It also contradicts the unprinted version of events by placing Grungni, Valaya, and Grimnir as physical beings, and not as the ancestor gods yet, at the time of the comming of chaos. Only later were they known as the Ancestor Gods, much after the disappearance of Grimnir in the Chaos Wastes. Further it goes on to say that the Chaos Dwarfs never knew of Grimnir, Valaya, and Grungni, because they had only risen to lead the dwarfs after the mountain dwarfs had left the holds after the coming of chaos.Correction, they never knew them as anything but dwarfs. Therefore, they didn;t know they were gods. This is why they say that they believe the dwarfs abandoned them as opposed to their gods abandoning them.
dedwrekka
Where the unprinted version of events places them as having been the Ancestor Gods and well known to the Chaos Dwarfs well before that time. It also places Runes and runesmiths as having been around for a long time by that point, another thing at odds with the latest fluff.The unprinted version says that they were heroes at the time of the Chaos dwarfs leaving. It doesn't say the runesmiths had been around for a long time, by that point, but even if they had, the ancestor gods lived for the same amount of time as an average elf (minimum, as I believe one or two lived longer. One to 6,000 if memory serves) and so it'd still be plausible.
dedwrekka
dedwrekka:
Grungni didn't teach the dwarfs runes until after they had left their mountain holds after the coming of chaos. The Chaos Dwarfs had been corrupted durring the first coming of chaos, having been "not so well defended" against chaos as the dwarfs with their deep mountain holds. Holds which were the thing that stopped the mountain dwarfs from suffering the same fate as the Chaos Dwarfs.The Chaos Dwarfs never had Runesmiths according to the Dwarf Fluff. Runes were only taught to dwarfs bu Grungni as a means of defense against chaos after chaos had swept the land and only after the Dwarfs had come out of their mountain holds. This places it at a time only after the coming of chaos and after the Dwarfs of the Great Skull Land had become Chaos Dwarfs (During the time the other dwarfs were hiding in their holds).Actually, it says that the Ancestor gods were still in physical form (and I believe had taught them runic magic) when the Chaos dwarfs bcame Chaos dwarfs.
dedwrekka
Hashut's Blessing
From "The Orphans" in WA: DwarfsIn "The Orphans" bit about the chaos dwarfs it says that they didn't have leaders like Grungni, Valaya, or Grimnir that appeared. I fail to see how they could have had runesmiths if the dwarfs were only taught to use runes by Grungni after the coming of chaos, and how the Chaos Dwarfs could have known runes if they didn't know Grungni.Actually, it says that these three Ancestor gods (it states ancestor gods, I believe) didn't arise, nor did any hero like them, to lead the dwarfs away from Chaos. This, therefore, means that the gods did exist by this point, as gods, but they just didn;t stop the Chaos dwarfs going off to the Darklands.
dedwrekka
"...no Grimnir, Grungni, or Valaya arose to lead them, or at least no heroes have been recorded."They were Heroes at the time. Grimnir later had a son who he handed off his axe to before stalking off into the wastes, as detailed in "The Doom of Grimnir" one page after "The Orphans".
It also contradicts the unprinted version of events by placing Grungni, Valaya, and Grimnir as physical beings, and not as the ancestor gods yet, at the time of the comming of chaos. Only later were they known as the Ancestor Gods, much after the disappearance of Grimnir in the Chaos Wastes. Further it goes on to say that the Chaos Dwarfs never knew of Grimnir, Valaya, and Grungni, because they had only risen to lead the dwarfs after the mountain dwarfs had left the holds after the coming of chaos.Correction, they never knew them as anything but dwarfs. Therefore, they didn;t know they were gods. This is why they say that they believe the dwarfs abandoned them as opposed to their gods abandoning them.[/quote]
dedwrekka
Where the unprinted version of events places them as having been the Ancestor Gods and well known to the Chaos Dwarfs well before that time. It also places Runes and runesmiths as having been around for a long time by that point, another thing at odds with the latest fluff.[/quote]
dedwrekka