where does the “after” come from dude… except your head…
The Dwarfs were not Defenceless. The ancient tales tell how Grungni taught them how to inscribe magical runs onto their weapons and armor. He armed Grimnir with two mighty axes and armor harder than the bones of mountains. From their underground strongholds, the armies of the dwarfs sallied forth to do battle against the horde of Chaos. Valaya protected the dwarfs against the dark magic of their enemies, and Grimnir slew many daemons with his axes.
Runelore was not created for the chaos incursion… but did allow the dwarfs to defend themselves from it… it was taught well in advance of the chaos incursion… the dark land dwarfs possessed this knowledge before they entered the dark lands… later on the warpgate collapsed…
There’s plenty of other problems with the unprinted “History of Chaos” from which the unprinted version of events draws from.
The Entire “Destruction of the Goblin Kingdoms” portion is worth a laugh. It describes the Dark Lands as being fertile before the coming of chaos when the WA: Dwarfs calls it “The Great Skull Land” with little mineral wealth or resources.
It states that the goblin kingdoms were advanced beyond that of the Orcs, which is at odds with the Orc’s fluff as well.
the whole chapter seeming to take place right above the heads of the Chaos Dwarfs without either knowing the other was there. Somehow the demons even sealing Hashut beneath the ground in a chamber, still missing that the Chaos Dwarfs were there. As well, Hashut making some grand change from a demon prince into his own chaos god in the little amount of time he was in a prison. Certainly the fastest jail bird conversion I’ve ever heard of.
“Rise of the Skaven” though bearing certain similarities to the creation story in their Army Book, is again, entirely off the mark.
This whole “Earth Mother” thing with the “Seduction of Man” section ignores that Sigmar was a worshipper of Ulric and not even born by the time chaos came to the Old world during the First Incursion of Chaos. Even within the chapter itself it has some problems keeping it straight, shifting from mentioning “Sigmar, Ulric, and Taal” as gods and this “Earth Mother” god that apparently united all of humanity. It even mentions Sigmar being a God worshipped by human tribes in one paragraph before mentioning Sigmar as a man leading the Empire a paragraph later, and giving dates and times that also place Sigmar as a god, worshipped by humanity, before being a man and Emperor.
Strangely enough it mentions Dark Elves leaving the Elves at about the correct point in the timeline, though under much different circumstances than those describes in bothe the Dark Elf and Elf books, but then goes down many chapters later to have dark elfs fighting khorne during the first invasion?!
"...no Grimnir, Grungni, or Valaya arose to lead them, or at least no heroes have been recorded."
They were Heroes at the time. Grimnir later had a son who he handed off his axe to before stalking off into the wastes, as detailed in "The Doom of Grimnir" one page after "The Orphans".
They couldn't have been heroes as they didn't arise to lead them. They lead the dwarfs whilst they were heores.
But, anyway, we digress. I had just posted something, but my internet failed as I clicked send and I cannot rememeber what a lot fo it said, excepting that I mentioned there was little need for the "after (repeat: after)" as we are all mature on here and also that I mentioned that anything I say on any thread is liable to a clause of, I accept I may be wrong and if so would like to be corrected politely.
The only other points I recall was an agreement that the author perhaps did push too far on the Balrogesque theme occurring and also that either way, the runesmiths, had there been any, were all killed anyway and thusly, that is why Chaos dwarfs do not use runes. I beleive another point I'd made (which I've just recalled) was that one is official and one is not, therefore, the one that is official is correct and there should be no disagreement there. Problem solved.
Verdict: Chaos dwarfs don't use runic magic becase the runesmiths (who didn't exist anyway and thusly never went, according to official fluff) were all killed as sacrifices to Hashut (according to unofficial fluff), causing there to be no method of creating runic magics akin to the Western Dwarfs. Perhaps we then developed daemon-binidng runes, but that's not been defined in fluff yet, we've just been told daemon-binding occurs.
where does the "after" come from dude... except your head...
metro_gnome
The no Grungni, Grimnir nor Valaya part of "The Orphans". It says "...no Grimnir, Grungni, or Valaya arose to lead them, or at least no heroes have been recorded." Those three only arose to lead during the incursion of chaos, Grungni's leadership was teaching runelore and arming Grimnir.
But, anyway, we digress. I had just posted something, but my internet failed as I clicked send and I cannot rememeber what a lot fo it said, excepting that I mentioned there was little need for the "after (repeat: after)" as we are all mature on here and also that I mentioned that anything I say on any thread is liable to a clause of, I accept I may be wrong and if so would like to be corrected politely.
Hashut's Blessing
It seemed that most of my arguments and input from my view were either ignored or misconstrued, so I felt emphasis was needed. I'm sorry if it felt pushy.
Don’;t worry about it. I also apologise for the unintended implications put forth. That is something I’m very aware I may accidentally do, which I don’t wish to. If I do not reply to a point, it’s usually because the point is correct.
However, I thought, as Metro pointed out, that the runelore was created before, but assumed I had misplaced my thoughts during posting. A lot of the unprinted version would be incorrect, partly because GW has updated fluff, but not the unprinted (for obvious reasons )and so that could be a cause of it.
I thought the three heroes existed before, but lead the armies of dwarfs in the incursion? As I said, I was lead to believe they lived for thousands of years as opposed to the normal hundreds, by dwarfs, thusly allowing them to exist some time before during and possibly after the incursion.
Is it certain that runes were taught entirely by Grungi?
As I’m pretty sure that lots of old fluff has it being taught to the dwarfs by the Old Ones (at the same time they taught the elves magic). So, even if it was not developed to the same level as it would later be by Grungi, the proto-cd would have still possesed some runelore.
Generally there is some rune lore among the Chaos Dwarfs, though maybe not in the same vein of the Dwarfs. The Rune of Hashut used as a symbol of Hashut’s power and runes of chaos used to bound demons to the Hellcannon are a part of it. There’s also a good amount of mention of runes when descriptions of magic weapons of all races come up, so at least some runes may be used by all cultures to bind magic to items.
Exataly, they would have used all sorts of convenience and aesthetic runes; the same as how the elves were using magic.
Also, although there was no ‘evil’ to fight, there was still Orcs, Dragons, Dragon Ogres, wild beasts etc that runcraft could have been used to deal with.
Its frustrating to say that we dont know our own origins. :mad
Trying to find out the origins of Hashut, the coming of chaos, the contacts between eastern and western dwarfs, the eventual corruption and the timeline of all this, will be impossible until they give us some recent/new/updated/rethinked fluff.
Quite frankly, the fan fluff is way more complete and even make more sense than the few ideas GW throw years ago.
No matter how much we debate (and I certantly enjoy this kind of fluff threads), the last conclusion is that CD must come back. There background cant sustain himself right know.
The Chaos Dwarfs should have their own version of Khazalid, though the language and writing system might well have shifted a little and been corrupted by the Dark Tongue (which might or might not be their language for sorcery).
Now, a better question is if they have any knowledge of the aldrunr, the Arcane Dwarf script.
Seeing as the Dark toung’s near Identical to the Lingua Preasantia that’s almost certainly what the Sorcerers use for spell casting (and prehaps regular language as well, see Revlid/Metro’s (can’t remember which) ‘Hyshut’ theory); and I’d put foward that Chaos runes would have become mixed with Kazalid runes as far as writing is concerned.
)and so that could be a cause of it.