They attacked a Dutch Warship.
Dutch 1 - Pirates - 0.
They did something similar to a French warship a year or so ago, and got similarly smacked around.
I say bring back the hangman’s noose. Either that or start hunting the pirates down with air assets. Special forces didn’t work in Somalia 17 years ago, sadly. Just flatten them.
How can they not tell the difference between a warship from a cargo ship thats an epic fail x.x
Either that or start hunting the pirates down with air assets. Special forces didn't work in Somalia 17 years ago, sadly. Just flatten them.
Killing a bunch of pirates doesn't solve anything imo, the country has big big problems.
Just trying to imagine what "Yohoho and a bottle of rum" sounds like in a Somalian accent...
True but it’s not just Somalia, Hell Africa (most of it) has been a problem for decades. Think about it: the continent has been a proxy fight for world powers for centuries perhaps.
The one thing I don’t get is why as Swiss points out why air power is not being applied to them. I’m sure a couple of Reapers or Predators can solve it. I say this knowing full well how long the Somalia coast line is, this is more of a general statement
I think it is a little ridiculous that they just set them free… I guess who would jail them blah blah blah… but just “hey, don’t do that!.. now go on get!?!” seems kinda silly!
True but it's not just Somalia, Hell Africa (most of it) has been a problem for decades. Think about it: the continent has been a proxy fight for world powers for centuries perhaps.
No it was not a proxy fight until the countries became independent in the modern era and the cold war.
I'm sure it's a rather controversial thing to say, but I'm gonna anyway. Pretty much no country in Africa has been able to function as an independent nation. Why that would be so might be a rather touchy subject.
The one thing I don't get is why as Swiss points out why air power is not being applied to them. I'm sure a couple of Reapers or Predators can solve it. I say this knowing full well how long the Somalia coast line is, this is more of a general statement
Question is though, which of the ragged armed bands are pirates and which are "government" forces. Or just random peasants.
There's also that fun "oh, but we could not interfere with a country..." legal mumbo jumbo. Out on the high seas international law doesn't quite apply.
You want to get the pirates? Bomb the frakk out of any newly built Somalian mansions...
Regardless, until some stability can be imposed there will always be more potentials. When you don't have anything to loose you are a dangerous opponent. That's why the US can't "bomb the terrorists to the stone age". That would actually be a step up in civilization for them.
Unfortunately any civilized society is somewhat at the mercy of those who do not play by the rules. And you can't do anything about it because that would be the end of civilization.
When it comes to civilization vs barbarism (in the form of piracy, terrorism, rogue leaders, etc) some rules should be set aside. Just look how Thomas Jefferson handled the Barbary Coast, or the British handled piracy a few centuries ago. If you catch the people in the act, eliminate them. If you can find their munitions dump, seize or destroy it.
The political situation is two fold. Somalia has been anarchy, and the best example of anarchy for two decades. Once you’ve had anarchy for that long, it will be that much harder to get rid of it. You’ll have scattered warlords who are, relatively speaking, living like kings. They don’t want to give that up. Meanwhile their underlings see the possibilities of power, so they are content with the system.
At this point, you have an entire generation (the one which will soon be in power) that will have grown up in that environment and take it for granted. Those in the various militias, pirate groups, etc feel empowered by their groups and weapons. Gangs are nothing compared to these groups. So without solving the problem AND having some sort of guidance to make sure the next generation grows up wanting something better… the only real way it is likely to be solved is by one warlord overcoming the others and staying in power. Plus it has to be a warlord with some level of vision for unity. This is sad, but it is the most likely scenario.
The second problem applies to a lot of Africa. When the European nations claimed these territories, they did so when these lands had not yet entered a nationalist phase. When I say nationalist, I mean it in the older sense of the word. In this case Nationalism in the same sense that when the kingdoms of Flanders, and others said “Hey, we speak the same language and have a common history… let’s work together” which eventually led to modern day France. A few could be seen as having some level of nationalism, the Zulu were establishing an empire of sorts and could perhaps be seen as nation building.
Still, overall, the pre-nationalistic people were divided largely on geographic terms. While in some ways there was some unification caused by Imperialism (be it as resistance to the Imperialists or by providing a common language as seen in (present day) India). When they left, a lot of these boundaries remained. Some of these borders divided people with cultural similarities, and united people with wildly diverse cultures. In many cases this resulted in chaos, as various groups struggled for power. You only need to look at the Congo/Zaire, pre-division India, and a couple others to see that. I suspect it will be several generations before some better these conflicts will die down.
The Middle East had some problems like this, but had some sense of identity preceding Imperialism. Plus they were able to use religion for unity, and in some cases this meant theocracy. Meanwhile other elements used Nationalism (in a more modern sense) for unity.
Call me a cynic, but I see unity/peace only coming after time and blood. It reminds me of Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. The only problem is, modern technology makes it so much worse.
As for the piracy? Only military force by the various powers will do anything about it. Find the pirates bases and destroy them. If the EU, USA, Japan, Australia, and a few others committed even a small force (heck just a few ships from most powers) to patrolling the area. The pirates would be overwhelmed. Hunt down their munition dumps and bases… and you’ll make it very hard for them to operate. As snowblizz said, I’d suspect any mansions would belong to people either operating the pirate groups, supplying these groups (arms dealers), or are some sort of warlord. Hitting a few of these might discourage further support.
Plus if you capture any? If they were caught attacking shipping (with predators/satelites watching), or your ship… they should just be eliminated. I’d consider letting merchant ships have some some weaponry (beyond a machine gun) to protect themselves. With maritime law, I’m sure it’d be easy to make handling pirates that easy. Heck, with the Predators and such… the moment a skiff or two starts attacking they could find themselves having a missile down their throat!
You would have thougth by now they would be able to tell the difference. I read about this yesterday on Yahoo, Scary stuff
Pretty much no country in Africa has been able to function as an independent nation.
As Swiss says, they were shunted forward by white imperialism. Being jumped forward by someone else's agenda always causes the worst things to happen, like in the far east in the late 19th and early 20th century.
If the EU, USA, Japan, Australia, and a few others committed even a small force (heck just a few ships from most powers) to patrolling the area.
Japan has already sent ships (controversial as our constitution forbids military activity outside Japanese territory), as have China, India and others.
i guess they rly shouldnt let the pirates lose, and i dont belive in jain in that case…
Aww, Swiss already said all the stuff I was gonna say about Europe arbitrarily carving up other continents and then expecting dispirate groups to just get along centuries later. Iraq would be the modern canonical example, of course.
Baggronor: It’s not just Imperialism, but when it happened. The far east, although also grabbed up by Imperialism, had some sense of cultural and national identities on a larger scale. While the recovery was painful (particularly India-Pakistan split), within 30-40 years they had established their borders and such. They also had the benefit of more natural resources, and/or terrain that was navigable.
The only real African culture to never truly be gobbled up was was we know today as Ethiopia. This has been true for centuries. As such they did develop something of a national/cultural identity… and were able to maintain it as well.
I wouldn’t blame Imperialism alone, as there are several other factors involved it that existed before Imperialism (mostly geological issues, although some cultural tensions as well) and after. Technology is a double edged sword in some of these areas, as they might not have the resources to support it that well on their own… or because it makes the chaos and division worse (such as in Somalia). Plus it wasn’t just the whites who had conquered and interfered with Africa either. The Arabs, when they rose to power, had conquered much of northern Africa and had interfered with much of the rest too. So the continent has been interfered with long before the Imperial era. It’s usually the timing that hurt them, as they never really got the chance to reestablish themselves (outside a few isolated pockets) before the next wave.
Even a limited influx of modern medicine reducing infant mortality rate significantly, but the people maintaining the historical practice (as all cultures did at one time) of having extra children to overcome the mortality rate. This leads to over population (as in many places it exceeds the ability to feed or support), and over population creates many problems, especially in a society with either cultural tensions or no unifying national/cultural/whatever identity for them to rally around. This can create a sense of, well, claustrophobia… so the people might find a need to expand even if by force.
Throw in the ages old religious conflict that existed before/during/after 18th century Imperialism and you have a whole different set of issues. Millennia long divisions like that, sometimes within close proximity, can lead to a lot of chaos.
So, again, to blame Imperialism alone I think is a mistake. Was it a factor, and a significant one? Sure, it was. Especially, as you say when you artificially advance them in terms of technology and infrastructure. However, that would simplify the current state a bit too much I think. If it was just Imperialism, and none of these other factors existed… they’d probably be fairly established as nations (although perhaps not affluent) by now. It’s all these other issues that really have left them in a mess.
The far east, had significant and long established (in many cases older than the Europeans) identities they quickly fell back on. In the case of Japan, they decided to ‘join them’ and modernized. Like many European nations, they adopted a sense of (modern) Nationalism that then went to Ultra-Nationalism. This, like in Europe, led to brutal and bloody wars. The far east is also, in terms of agriculture and resources, better land for the most part. India, got worse under Imperialism, as it got more divided as the British played people off each other. However, China and south east Asia were able to avoid that. Though historically China has often survived significant attempts at conquest (just ask the Mongols).
I hate saying it, but the current state of affairs and the factors behind it make me cynical in thinking it will take someone like Alexander, Qin Shi Huang, etc to actually unify some of these areas. Sadly, all of the current warlords are nothing more than petty thugs.
hehe yeey, go our navy! ;D
I didn’t really check the news lately so I didn’t even know this thanks for stating it ^^