Patrikson:
I don’t know if this would go here but anyway.
I’ve been looking at my rulebooks and codexe’s and i have been wondering…
Why are the Empire/Imperials/everything related to that subject so dark/chaotic looking when they are supoosed to be the good guys or more or less ummmm well “royal”…
I mean i looked through both my rulebooks and after the lords of terra bit in wh40k rb it had the orders and all about the emperor and when they had the skinny man and the big man on one of those pages there faces looked warp and there body was repulsive and looked like the taint of chaos.
And then you have that big boat picture in the whfb that was the emperors tomb it had skulls and skeletons on it and a few other things that look more like it belonged to the hordes of chaos or maybe the vampire counts or tomb kings.
So my question to you guys is why they are so evil looking and chaotic when thats what they wish to destroy?.
Also sorry for the bad grammar.
-
Pat 
GRNDL:
Both franchises are themed about fear, superstition and religious doctrine, similar to the “dark” and middle ages Europe where the average person was constantly reminded of death. The artwork and themes are reminders of mortality and the constant present of death and hope came in the form of adherence to the dictates of the Church. Art of the time is full of “momento mori” - reminders of death. The european cultures of the time had a much closer relationship to death than we do today - they witnessed executions regularly, they butchered food animals, women would die in childbirth, people lived short, nasty lives.
I’ve always thought of the Warhammer franchises as very “grey” worlds. There’s no real black and white, clear-cut opposite sides. Every species/empire is tainted by evil in some way.
There’s really not a lot of difference between the Empire and Chaos, outside of the “extremist” characters. A tragic hero worshiping the Chaos gods is just as messed up as a fundamentalist inquisitor trying to rid the world of chaos. They differ only in ideology. I think there’s a point being made that its very easy to slip over the line that separates them, which in turn drives up tension and paranoia of the game world.
Thommy H:
They’re dark fantasy settings.
Loki:
What GRNDL has said is spot on, the best way to control the populace is to remind them that there is a place after this life and that if your wrong and wicked in this life it will reflect on your next life, for 40k this is if you fight for the emperor in life you will be beside him when you die and he will protect you if you don�?Tt your soul will go to the warp to be food for the daemons, same in the old world but with sigmar and the gardens of morr as the reward, and if you control the only way to get ot these places the cult of the emperor and the church of sigmar then you have power, and its also a way for encouraging the good in people, with only having a short life expectancy , much less then what we have now, people would strive to do good to ensure there place in a happy after life
Patrikson:
Thanks guys ((except thommy XD))
What Grndl said brought a tear to my eye.
Mate, you wrote that very well and i understood it.
The way you wrote it Grndl…you should give yourself a pat on the back
That and Loki’s reply were the most intelligent reply’s i’ve had on any of my threads on cdo and the internet
Thanks guys
-
Pat
warh:
because the imperium is the evil!
chaos are the good guys 
Patrikson:
LE GASP
I never would have guessed :hat off
cornixt:
The Emperor consumes the souls of thousands of psykers every day, merely to remain alive. And remember who creates and feeds Chaos - the living.
Thommy H:
Thanks guys ((except thommy XD))
Patrikson
Why? What was wrong with what I said? Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are dark fantasy - as opposed to high fantasy, heroic fantasy, low fantasy, cyber punk, space opera, steampunk etc. That's their genre. It's supposed to be about shades of grey: even the good guys are pretty awful, and the only thing that really seperates the protagonists from the antagonists is whose side it's written from.
AGPO:
For 40K’s sake, we can only say that it’s because the Imperium is not a particularly nice nation/empire/thing. Let’s look at the facts:
- As previously mentioned, their ruler not only kills, but consumes the souls of thousands of people every single day
- There is no religious tolerance, and any form of divergance from the imperial cult is punishable by death.
- Democracy is non-existant. Each world is ruled by an all-powerful, externally appointed planetary govenor.
- The Imperium is quite happy to resort to slave labour, genocide and the destruction of entire worlds and civilisations to achieve it’s goals.
As for the Empire, it’s pretty much a classic C16th century European state. With wizards and monsters. You’re taking what is already a pretty short and brutal existance for most people and then adding a whole load of extra threats. That’s pretty bleak if you ask me.
Also, don’t forget we only really see the military side of these cultures most of the time. Take a peak at some of the symbols of our own World’s military institutions:
Shako belonging to a Prussian “Death’s Head” of the Napoleonic era. The Death’s head was a popular motif throughout Prussian and Germanic military history. Guess who the Empire are based on?
US Marine Core - "Death before dishonour"
If I had the time I could dredge up plenty more examples.
snowblizz:
For 40K's sake, we can only say that it's because the Imperium is not a particularly nice nation/empire/thing. Let's look at the facts:
AGPO
It certainly isn't, but then again who is? The only place where one could think to be would seem to be alongside the Tau. Which in many ways disturbs the whole setting. But I've never liked the Tau so am biased on that account.
- As previously mentioned, their ruler not only kills, but consumes the souls of thousands of people every single day
AGPO
Actually the Emperor hasn't killed anyone since Horus, as far as can be determined. The Imperium of the day is not in any way what the Emperor sought to achieve either. Which is kinda interesting in fact. How different time has taken the Empire of Man.
- There is no religious tolerance, and any form of divergance from the imperial cult is punishable by death.
AGPO
That's not true. Exactly *what* constitutes the Imperial creed is debatable (and something the Ecclessiary does a lot), many many worlds have divergent beliefs. About the only common theme is worshipping the Emperor, but in what guise he takes varies between worlds.
Of course, the kicker here is that *we* objectively know that e.g. worshipping Chaos is a very very bad idea.
- Democracy is non-existant. Each world is ruled by an all-powerful, externally appointed planetary govenor.
AGPO
Actually no, there are examples of a semblance of democracy in the background. And governors aren't normally appointed, most are hereditary positions often stretching back a long time. Of course that's not exactly democratic either.
In so far as one would want to defend the system it has to be noted that there's really no other practical way of going about in a galaxy spanning empire. Well, as far as we know at least. It's really impossible to say as there's no practical frame of reference. But would a democratic system be able to respond to a hostile universe?
- The Imperium is quite happy to resort to slave labour, genocide and the destruction of entire worlds and civilisations to achieve it's goals.
AGPO
Yup. Of course if they didn't, wouldn't mankind tear itself apart and be overwhelmed by its enemies? While I wouldn't exactly laud the methods they use there's just so much you can try to resolve with blood crashed followers of Khorne e.g.
There are a few examples of Imperial worlds which to me seem almost palatable, though certainly at least 95% are very very unpleasant places indeed. Of course the *alternative* is being consumed by a Tyranid, enslaved by Orks, being abused by Dark Eldar or throwing in with the fickle lot of Chaos. Not very many decent choices to make. Makes the Imperium seemingly humane in comparison.
Thommy H:
Actually the Emperor hasn't killed anyone since Horus, as far as can be determined.
Apart from all the thousands of Pyskers that have to be tortured to death every day to keep him alive, presumably...
Grimstonefire:
Last I heard he was still rotting, so technically he personally hasn’t killed anyone. 
Fequiil:
because the imperium is the evil!
chaos are the good guys :D
warh
that is how i want to look at it!:D
Chaos helpes them to end their sucking lives!:)
and, they bring unation!
so, if chaos wins, there will be peace!:hat off
but...
Chaos+peace= x.x
warh:
snowblizz, you have been blinded by the imperium!
and this is a Chaos dwarf site;)
Thommy H:
Last I heard he was still rotting, so technically he personally hasn't killed anyone. ;)
Grimstonefire
I don't know exactly how the Golden Throne works, but I would assume that the psychic nature of his "feeding" would mean he takes an active role in some sense. It may be like an intravenous drip, in a way, but I think it's still fair to say there's blood on His hands in either case.
The point is, the Imperium is not a nice place. Nor should it be, because that's the whole point of the setting.
"This place sucks, but it's better than the alternatives..." is the theme.
Baggronor:
I don't know exactly how the Golden Throne works, but I would assume that the psychic nature of his "feeding" would mean he takes an active role in some sense. It may be like an intravenous drip, in a way, but I think it's still fair to say there's blood on His hands in either case.
Yup. But its either that or the psychic beacon he sends out shuts off and no-one can navigate.
Of course, the kicker here is that *we* objectively know that e.g. worshipping Chaos is a very very bad idea.
Matter of opinion :)
TheVoice:
The Imperium showed signs of going bad long before the Emperor ‘died’ - he had a terrible Messiah complex and was already stamping out technologies the Cult of Mars disapproved of.
When playing Chaos Dwarfs, I do not think of them as ‘evil’, no more than if I was playing a historical game with a culture that used slaves and religious sacrifices (i.e. a lot of them). I know lots of people are fine simply playing an evil race, but frankly no race ever sees itself as evil and acts evil all the time. Chaos Dwarfs have women, children and private lives that aren’t represented in a wargame like Warhammer and its suitably war-focused background fluff.
Thommy H:
Just because someone doesn’t think they’re evil doesn’t mean they aren’t. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, after all.
/Godwin’s Law
Also, not being evil all the time doesn’t make you better - it makes you worse. Someone capable of acting with empathy and kindness is all the more abhorrent for neglecting that side of themselves than someone totally incapable of virtue. Someone unrepentantly evil and destructive is just a monster.
TheVoice:
True to an extent. Chaos Dwarfs keep slaves, and sacrifice. So did lots of historical cultures we don’t think of as evil. My issue is that although slavery and sacrifice are undoubtedly evil, there is a tendency to go ‘these guys are bad guys, so they must drink from skulls and have no good sides at all!’. I dislike that, and it happens a lot in the GW universe. Not so much ‘nothing is black and white’ so much as ‘some things are black, others are only black-ish’. And I disagree with you on the second thing: out and evil is worse. Imperial Rome is not more evil than Archaon, for example.
