[Archive] Spam

[system]

Sojourn:

By now I’m sure you all know after the last issue that post count does matter to me, but, I think that this is a fair request. Sure Thommy, brevity can be the soul of wit, a personal motto, but I think the general suggestion is don’t respond with:

LOLZ! ya! :cheers etc etc, and so on and so forth.

I’m sure, and I can be corrected if wrong, but Xander already alluded to it, in the showcases or WIP blogs or “my first painted army” posts, people are welcome to review the minis, provide some encouraging words, perhaps comment on the highlighting or colour scheme and move on without incident. But maybe even instead of just responding “wow, cool!!!” to an army, provide slaves instead! we’re trying to promote giving away slaves anyways! I always love a new slave.

I try to look at these forums as a very slow phone conversation. hear me out. If I post something, I either (most of the time!) try to encourage a response, stimulate a conversation among others, etc. Look at the intro of new members, if they post about their current armies, I try to ask “how long have you played? what’s the first unit of CDs they’re looking at converting” etc so that there is something substantial to continue discussing. Nothing is worse than a phone conversation that goes as follows:

Me: Hey! how are ya!?

You: good.

Me: … that’s great! so, I have a couple months left until I finish my CMA (true story!)

You: woo. go you.

Me: is this a bad time? should I call back?

You: no, I’m not busy.

Me: hits head against desk

So let’s avoid that on the forums so my head doesn’t hurt so much from repeatedly hitting it against my desk

Off Topic, post count doesn’t matter. I doubt they’ll crack down on one liners there. so my primary source of humour will be safe (ba-doom ching!)

I agree with many of the others who posted above, I was getting sick of checking back in later on a thread and being 15 or 20 posts behind, and then reading through and realising NOTHING has actually transpired on the post. Instead, it’s some sort of chit chat. and that’s GREAT that people get along. I love the community here, but those I want to ‘chit chat’ with I try to do it through PM or MSN or Gtalk as much as possible. And yes, that creates a friendship that is hard to remove from the boards and sometimes things go off topic a little. It’s what makes CDO great, but if it’s directed, contributing and thought out, I don’t see an issue.

As for whether CDO is in trouble, I think that recently people seem tense. there is displeasure because those who have been around for a long time remember how things used to work when the community was smaller. Now it’s getting bigger, and bad habits that weren’t once here have migrated from other forums, resulting in adjustments to be made. Things will settle down, and as long as people just, try to make this a positive place, I don’t see why CDO wouldn’t survive this small bout of turbulence. I’m sticking around despite my recent displeasure with some things. (HA! can’t get rid of me THAT easily ;))

And I agree Thommy, perhaps not the most ‘open and receptive’ language was used in the post, but, I think the intent is to re-focus our conversations and threads to a positive and communicative one. And we know it’s not directed at you, you contribute a lot around here and I know I appreciate it. it’s your wit and humour. I couldn’t go a day without it. makes me lol irl. haha

[Baggronor]

Baggronor:

Perhaps we should allow these changes some time to take effect before we rail against them. After all, the staff have to deal with the site as a whole, but we only see the parts that we choose to. Personally I haven’t noticed any plague of one liner spam posts, but then again I tend to look at modelling/army lists/theme posts where they perhaps aren’t so prevalent. One line posts hardly stick in my mind anyway, as its not my job to moderate (boy that must be fun :cheers).

Most forums have far more strict rules than these, I assure you.

This is certainly true. I posted on Druchii.net for the first time in months a while ago. I got edited by a mod for using '‘cause’ instead of ‘because’ for Christ’s sake.

I wasn’t aware that you spoke for the site or that you were in tune with what makes people want to post or not. If you have some special access to knowledge pertaining to the consensus of the forums, I welcome the sharing of said information.

I think Thommy’s response is understandable though, it does come across as pretty harsh. If I’m right about the underlying reasons though, it shouldn’t affect him or me or the majority of the site, as it seems to me like its directed at posts that aren’t constructive at all, which are apparrently growing too common. I am, of course, working under the questionable assumption that there is usually some point to my posts, which may or may not be accurate. :cheers

[system]

Sojourn:

Though I've noticed a fair few short replies here and there, they've certainly not bothered me. Even so, I have to disagree with a small point by Thommy H - such 'draconian' measures are incredibly productive for viable social lives. Imagine this -  person is going to post, then remembers 'THE RULES' and thinks very carefully. Deciding there isn't really any content, the user doesn't post and instead lurks, ever quiet, in the sidelines of the forum. They essentially remain unseen, to a greater extent as more and more potential posts are lost to the all-consuming hunger of 'THE RULES'. This evolves the basic traditional user in to the far superior 'lurker' who can come and go as they please, almost entirely unseen.

In a real life situation this can act almost as social camouflage, as not speaking out for fear of breaking a social rule prevents the person from drawing unwanted attention from predators and traveling salesmen - indeed such a behaviour is vitally important, nay, necessary, for a being to function. Stemming such flagrant abuse of free speech therefore leads to a greater avoidance of social harm.

As such I wholeheartedly applaud these intensive and uncompromising measures, for the safety of all. Be lurkers my friends, be lurkers.


Geckilian

Putting your sarcasm aside, I actually see the other side to this one Geck.  

Who would want to pull themselves from the shadows of the lurkers' sidelines to contribute to a chit chat banter post that isn't on topic among people who talk outside of the forum? Would you jump in on a conversation between two strangers who appear to be friends that has no substance? By having threads that veer off topic because they add one liners, or the throw away "wow great" style of post, why would Johnny-2-posts-to-his-name want to add something? Maybe if they were talking about drybrushing or good quality paints to consider he can join in and contribute.

[system]

Thommy H:

I think the intent is to re-focus our conversations and threads to a positive and communicative one.

Like this one?

See, this is my issue here. I don't have a problem with discouraging spam posts. I don't have a problem with encouraging genuine contribution in place of "chat". That's all fine. What I do have a problem with is the Staff coming out with thirteen paragraph essays about how spam posts will no longer be toleated and how people are going to start getting banned if this awful, awful practice continues.

Don't you guys see how you make an issue worse by triggering a debate about it? By all means, let's talk about stuff, but coming in here, rattling of a terse list of instructions and demands in order to prevent a problem that doesn't even exist in the kind of volume people seem to think it does just gets peoples' heckles up.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, as the maxim goes. No problem exists which couldn't be solved by a short post saying "Hey, we've noticed there's a lot of spam posts right now - can I just remind you all about the rules?

[system]

Lord Archaon:

I partly agree with the staff. But imho that isn’t the main problem of CDO. In my opinion we should do more painting and converting stuff, not arguing about the rules.

And for those who want to spam or chat i suggest to go here:

[Willmark]

Willmark:

The post was not meant to be entirely friendly, it was to send a message. We have tried to nudge people to start changing their behavior, that hasn’t happened either.

As was missed; the vast majority of the site has nothing to worry about.

As far as Staff I must have missed you in those discussions, the Staff does not argue like you suggest and is in unanimous agreement on this. As an Admin I’m fine with bearing the bad news.

[system]

Thommy H:

We have tried to nudge people to start changing their behavior, that hasn't happened either.

So ban them if that's what you want to do. If this doesn't even apply to the vast majority of people, and the ones it does apply to "know who they are" [/ominous voice] then why announce it in a thread and direct it at everyone like this? The forum rules haven't changed, have they? This was just an unfriendly reminder that the Staff are watching all of us, and any of us could fall under suspicion now. Thanks. Makes me feel a lot better.

"It doesn't apply to you...but it might, so be careful what you do!"

And you don't have to worry - I'll make sure to post a lot less from now on, lest I draw the ire of the All-Seeing-Staff who hate spam so much.

[Baggronor]

Baggronor:

I'll make sure to post a lot less from now on

That would be a loss for CDO :sad a big one.

[Xander]

Xander:

See, this is my issue here. I don't have a problem with discouraging spam posts. I don't have a problem with encouraging genuine contribution in place of "chat". That's all fine. What I do have a problem with is the Staff coming out with thirteen paragraph essays about how spam posts will no longer be toleated and how people are going to start getting banned if this awful, awful practice continues.

"Hey, we've noticed there's a lot of spam posts right now - can I just remind you all about the rules?

Thommy H

I can take this point. And I think we've done this in the past.

But this *is* a slight modification to the rules, so we wanted everyone to be fully aware of it.

[system]

Swissdictator:

I really like the chat idea, though when I click the chat thing it seems like I’m in an elf room.

I think I’d like a pure CDO type chat, as I think that would be a big help and actually help our community.

[system]

Canix:

Well well another interesting read or is it ?As usual i think this is a non issue.So how to join in with this conversation .Long post running round in circles,repeating what others have said or short post trying to get a point across without belabouring the issue.

The problem with threads like this is assumptions are made about why people post and what everyone wants from the site.Isnt there an off topic section where we can chat ,laugh,post oneliners etc.

Take the king of the hill thread nobody would read it through however everyone can take part.Friendly banter occurs then spills over into a blog,where is the problem?

Social interaction is like that ,i think its probably why alot of people like the site friendly not formal or overbearing.I understand that the staff and mods have to keep an eye for spamming but do we want corrections to spelling and grammer?.Staff admonishing members for short posts,threads being moved ,locked or deleted?

These are hard things to call but i for one prefer a soft touch and relaxed forum that allows flexibility,i feel the site wont grow much if it changes :hat

Different strokes for different folks

[Willmark]

Willmark:

Again I will continue to bring back to the salient point: this isn’t about everyone, this is about those are consistently are abusing it.

[system]

Tarrakk Blackhand:

ThanX for this post. Now I wonder where I stand and how the Mods and Admin view myself? I’ll be watching my back for the first time on this “Friendly Site”.

Ok, you all may call me what you want and may even want to block me, ban me, throw me off the site, I don’t know.

But just to let you know, and to be 100% honest, I come to CDO for the friendship of this site. I’m new here (Since OCT) and like everyone says, CDO is one of the best sites out there. I like the fourm and the models and what goes on here. We offer many ideas on gaming and how important CD’s are and how to get them back in GW’s mind. I also like encouraging the new members with their models.

Over this short time, I believe I’ve made some great friends and met some great people. (Wallacer, Willmark, Kera, Tjub, Thommy H, Swiss Dictator, Xander, Pyro Stick, and everyone else.) I also agree with Thommy H that basically we can govern ourselves, and we’ve done a great job with it. This is why I love CDO better than any other site out there.

Now, about my posting habbits on this fourm.

To start off, I think this fear of having the fourm turn into senseless dribble over “1 posters” is totally ludicreous. You’re limiting our freedoms on this fourm and are going to drive us away!

One post threads are not always bad.

Believe me, I read over all the threads that interest me, from the first post to the last. If said post interests me enough, I reply to it. Many times though, all I can contribute to said post is “Nice Job”. Sorry, this is because there are usually 20 people ahead of me saying “Nice Job because of …”. After all of those types of posts, what else can be said that isn’t already?

I don’t want to just not post to this guy, I want to show him that his work does help the site. I want to encourage this member with his models, but I don’t think I can write the required “Essay” to do so. So I leave a “Nice Job” post to just show the guy that “Hey! Here’s another person who appreciates your work.” Yes…this is a “Post Count” on my part, but without a “Tarrakk Blackhand says “Nice Work”.” it actually says to the person “Tarrack Blackhand doesn’t recognize or acknowledge your contribution to CDO”. At least that’s how I see it. YES, it’s a “One Liner”, but it adds to the “Body Count” of the guy’s thread as opposed to the “Post Count”. This guy, after reading my “1 Liner” might think  “Tarrakk’s not a bad guy. He’s on my side and appreciates me. Perhaps I’ll check him out more in the future.”.

However, with the “Rule Change” if you factor in that EVERYONE on CDO is now worried that if they also leave a “Nice Post” scentance on the guys’s thread, that they too will get a warning. Henceforth, this guy will recieve only 1 or 2 comments on his pictures, after probably a week, and then he won’t want to post anything else. Well, what does it say to him? It says “Due to a rule change, we’re all afraid to compliment you, so you’ll have to appreciate the fact that no one’s going to say anything about your model, but somehow we all like it. Just trust us.” Good luck encouraging the new member.

Spam posts in a conversation? WHY NOT??? Other times, I will be contributing to and following a thread that many have posted to over the period of 3 weeks. I, along with others, am following the tide and turns of the friendly conversation, contributing a lot, like in the Blunderbuss Rules post, and further in that post, where it applies, I’ll leave a 2 word response because it is the best time for it. It’s just how conversations work.

Also, people wonder why the same few people keep posting on the threads. I’m one of those persons, as is Swiss, Kera, Billbo Baggons, Tjub, and many others. We do this because we like to talk to one another and we hope that out of the conversation that we’ll come to new understandings or clarify old ones on said topic. That might include 1 liners which, at the time, may not be totally meaningfull. However, WE are the ones keeping that thread from dying, keeping it in the public’s mind. Case in point ~ Blunderbuss Rules.

However, now I have to make every post into a 20-100 word essay? I don’t think I have the time for that and I also think the circumstances may not always ask for it either.

"One sentance “Spam Posts” are not allways a bad thing. For example, if Swiss is posting a thread on the applications of paint brushes and he asks a question on clean up and what a good brand of brush soap to use is and I reply “Try Ivroy Soap” and in a few seconds he replies back “Doesn’t work” and I retort “Use Hot Water.” and he comes back in 3 seconds and says “That got it!”, then those little 1 liners ACTUALLY contributed to that post and were vallad. Yet, according to these new “Rules” that entire contribution was “Spam” and both Swiss and myself would get repromanded.

Instead, the new rules would merrit a total essay response, such as ~

“What sort of soap is avalible on the open market to a consumer such as myself that would be in a low to moderate price range and would greatly enhance the cleanliness of the fibers of hair that are placed in the furrows and attached to the wooden handle which, in a whole, make up the entire essence of my paint brush?”

“Try using Ivroy Soap, the kind made from lye and poured into a large vat using alderberries from the Hemallayas. This soap is imported from China on a slow tramp steamer and is claimed to be 99.99% pure. Make sure that it is in the white wrapper, in the 5 pack, as this is the best value on the market. Also, watch for sales on Ivory Soap at your local grocery store.”

…ok, need I go on? Juvinile reasoning, I know, but this would be the direction of the new CDO. Long, boring posts that are just as meaningless as “Spam Posts”, members terrified to contribute anything big or small, members not recognising other member’s contributions in fear of being repramanded, Members having to stop and think every time they want to post which will lead to a “Lurker” or “Why Bother” mentality and the mods and admins wondering why members are leaving in a mass exodus!

And what’s next on the adjenda? Are we going to get banned on using the “quote” feature? I currently see people quoting entire posts, including the pictures which use up 1/2 the page’s band width in order to post at the end of it “Nice model”. Why not address this issue too, thus further terrifying the entire fourm? What about picture size regulations? Why not make this the next “Law” that all pictures MUST be 600 x 800 pixels and anything that’s 601 x 801 will get repromanded? Just how much “policing” do you guys want until CDO is just some distant memory to all the members?

I like CDO as it has been going to this point and want it to continue and I want to stay here. I’m a friendly guy who likes to talk. However, seeing as “Post Count” is such a huge, whopping, big fat hairy deal to you all, and you’re closely watching EVERYONE who posts anything to see if they’re breaking the “law”, then this kills any attempt you’re making at being a friendly site. So, out of the sake of a “Friendly Site” and being a “Friendly Contributor” I’m offering a new form of friendship. KINDLY REMOVE my ability to rank up and get slaves. I’m requesting this because this “Spam Post” stuff is rediculous and will ruin the site.

If you want a REAL spam post, I’ll gladly copy and paste all the ones I get on Yahoo Mail. However, I’m not that type of person.

MODS AND ADMINS: Please consider closely WHAT EXACTLY you’re doing to the unity of CDO!

P.S. I’m serious here and returned my slaves to the admin. Please kill my ability to rank up and collect slaves. I’m more of a man than that.

[system]

Swissdictator:

In defense of the staff, I have to say that I actually think they are very reserved, and cautious before making decisions. They really seem to talk to the community, and rely on their input. They seem to hold back at times too, and let the community express their views/reactions when certain issues pop up as they are they don’t want to be draconian.

I have frequented many forums. Civfanatics.com, Wisconsin Warhammer Fantasy Battles League, Illinois Warhammer Fantasy Battles, and a few others.

Civfanatics.com seems to be heavy handed at times. While I love the website, and the forum there, they seem far less interested in discussing with the community there or respecting its wishes… if they are interested at all.  CDO, on the other hand, strikes me as a community that is close nit. The staff here actually does care, as that’s the impression I’ve gotten when I’ve talked to them.

Now I’m not trying to be a suck up either, I will disagree at times, we’re human… it’s bound to happen and I’d be worried if it didn’t. However I try to be fair to them when I do disagree, and try to be respectful about it. Only in doing that do I feel like I’ve added something. I’m not criticizing anyone here… so no worries on that. So far we seem to be ok on that in this thread.

I think everyone needs to take a breather… go have a drink, walk around the block, play with your pet a bit, or whatever method you use to relax… and realize what a really good community we do have here. We have one of the best out there, and I’ve been on several, if not the best. I

I love this community and I think we should take that into account and realize we’re still growing and trying to figure these things out. Just because we may go this route, doesn’t mean we can’t go back. We can adjust back and forth as needed to make a great website. Flexibility is a strength, and I think that may be a wise consideration.

I tend to agree with the concerns on spam, though I also think that Thommy is right that there are several GREAT members of this forum who do post a lot. I don’t think the staff or anyone else wishes to discourage them at all. They have a bubbly excitement that is kind of refreshing, fun, and cool… but maybe needs a tiny bit more restraint. When it’s two people mostly posting back and forth, I can see the concerns having a point.

Edit: Blackhand you have a point in the paintbrushes example, though I think people would recognize the usefulness of such a situation. They can see how each post is useful.

I hope that came across with the respect I want it too.

Just my $0.02

[system]

Tarrakk Blackhand:

The thing that makes me mad with this is that I’m a hobby shop owner that has gone to some great lenghts over the past 5 years to get GW stuff. Upon learning about CD’s and actually seeking out this web site, I have been establishing a customer base for converting BFSP into CD’s.

I referr people to this site to show them how great it is, to show them what can be built using the BFSP and to show them that CDO offers contests and what-not for their conversions. It may not seem like I’m doing much for this community ON LINE, but behind the scenes, I’m for it 100%.

When the recession subsides and IF my hobby store is still in business, I was considering getting a lot of CDO shirts to promote the site. Give them away as prizes and wear them to GW Chinook Centre when I visit there. I’d also sell them at Tattoo Conventions when I go there in the summer.

With this stuff about “Post Counts” and “Spam Threads” and “Policing”, I’m having second opinions about my past actions. Perhaps if this keeps up, I’ll leave and start promoting Wood Elves, which is not a pretty thought and something I hope I never have to do.

So like I said in my last post, out of fairness and a lack of respect to my fellow members here, I would greatly appreciate it if my part of the “Rewards System” were permenatly removed, meaning Titles and Slaves. That way, I could post a “One Liner” and not get penalized for it or have to worry about any other strict measures.

[system]

angryboy2k:

I’m sorry. I made a joke at the beginning but I really don’t understand the strong reactions to this.

Other forums have posting limits (no posts of less than 15 characters for example). Willmark’s not proposing this (and I don’t think such a function exists on these boards at the moment). He’s not even saying that all one-liners are bad. He’s saying that if you consistently contribute NOTHING to the MAJORITY of threads you post in, your posts won’t be welcome.

Tarrak says we’re capable of policing ourselves, but if a minimum posting limit is the way to avoid overreactions then I think that’s what needs to be instituted.

Steve

[system]

snowblizz:

Again I will continue to bring back to the salient point: this isn't about everyone, this is about those are consistently are abusing it.

Willmark

It's great you're taking measures. But unless I have offended why am I being hit with the verbal hammer?
I find myself in 90% agreement with Thommy so instead of spamming with several long and content rich posts I'll just say he's got me covered and then some.

I just don't like being electronic collateral to some one (or few) persons transgressions I guess.

I still remember the university course where I had perfect attendance and got slammed with a 15 page extra essay because 3 other people hadn't shown up in class the required amount of times.

[system]

Tarrakk Blackhand:

This stuff should be kind and behind the scenes, in a PM where it belongs.

However, when it gets into the open discussion on the thread, everyone gets jumpy. Especially when it’s suggested that “we’re being watched.”. That’s 1984 George Orwell mentality. It’s going to drive people off! Once CDO gets into this frame of mind, people are going to run away. Don’t let this happen!

Being kind is an excellent way of helping out. Makes me feel comfortable and confident that you care about me enough to keep me and help me out with a “better post”. Keep it this way in the PM’s. NOT out for all to see.

Don’t get me wrong, you Mods and Admins are doing a great job here.

You’re keeping the propper things in line.

Flaming - I haven’t seen a “war” here yet.

Spamming - true spamming - No ads for penis enlargements, Cell Phones and what-not.

Disuading political, religious and sexually explicit threads.

And, unlike any of the other sites I’ve been on, you offer rewards systems.

Keep in mind that your reward system is a point of contention. The more people post, no matter how long or short, the more they “rank up” the charts. It’s how the system is set up. It’s Automatic! Once they hit a certain mark, they automatically get a slave or get a title, however, they continue to climb. You guys set it up this way to encourage us to post. Once we start posting, it gets to a point where you try and disuade us from posting because our posts are “too Short”.

It’s true that my command of the English language is good, however, I might not want to use it all the time. That’s my decision and right as a human being. And you’re right, it’s not my responsibility to keep a thread alive, but I enjoy doing so because I feel like I’m a part of what’s being said.

Also, what about Kera, Zanko and others? No offense to them intended, but their English is not the best because it’s their second language and they might need the short post from time to time to contribute. I’d hate to see them banned over this.

I’m a friendly person by nature. Even if you didn’t have a rewards system for posters, I’d still post. I do it on other web sites that don’t have any rewards, some of them I’ve been on for years. I still post there. It’s not the determining factor into why I stay on a Fourm. IT"S BECAUSE OF THE FRIENDSHIP.

If post count and rewards are such a problem to prevent short posts, or “Spam Posts”, then drop the slaves and post rank system entirely. It’s the only solution. And to keep this site friendly, let me be the first to get rid of my slaves and offer that you drop my titles and ranking ability.

Think this through.

Sincerly,

Trevor Ursulescu

Monster Hobbies

[cornixt]

cornixt:

As someone who reads this forum everyday, and most of the new posts, it is pretty annoying to go through 10+ posts where someone hasn’t added anything productive to any of the established threads. It’s a waste of my time, and waste of time for everyone else who does similar. Up until now, the mods and admins have been able to do active monitoring. With the forum size increasing, this policy is a way of hanging on to that method for a bit longer and not having to fall back on retro-active monitoring where members have to tell us when/where the s is falling. It won’t affect 99% of members, and we aren’t going to ban people who do it unless they continue for a while and ignore all the warnings.

It seems to have become more of a problem since the post-count threads, where people seem to think they will get more respect if they have a higher post count. They continually add comments without having anything constructive to say in order to artifically boost their perceieved status. Unfortunately, they don’t realise that this actually does the opposite and makes them seem rather vacuous - high post count but no actual reputation.

This thread is meant to be a bit more high profile because it stops people from complaining that they broke rules without knowing what the rules are. There have been justifiable complaints about this issue and we’d like to make sure that people know where they stand BEFORE they make an easy mistake. If you don’t think it is a big issue, then don’t try to make it into one by complaining loudly.

[Zanko]

Zanko:

Hhmmm …

I think both sides - the staff on one side / Thommy and Tarrakk on the other side - are partially right!

Both have good arguments to substiniate their position and so I can understand them.

@ Tarrakk: what my english is not the best … ???

I understand what you mean, often it is difficult for me to follow all threads and posts.

It´s also true that I need much time to write proper sentences and it´s often much easier for me to post a short one. They were  not always very intelectual or profound but I do not post just for making a post (damn … I hope you can imagine what I want to express???)!

I´m not annoyed of short encouraging posts concerning new armies, conversions or something like that! In my opinion these posts should be welcome and they are (in my point of view) important! For my part I´m happy if members like my army/work and post friendly or critical posts, cause only with a proper feedback I could decide how/what I can change to improve my army and/or skills.

But regardless how the staff will finally decide … no one should (because of such a reason) leave CDO!

It´s important to struggle/argue and see and rate the different aspects but we should be able to find an agreement … and if not … we should able to respect/endure the decision of the others.

                        :hashut