Whatever the result: I thing the 4+sv armour (whatever you call it) should be on them; and I would prefer them stubborn to other psychology modifiers
and with some sort of two handed weapon (my preference would be GWs)
With that said I prefer some combination of the top one and Revlid’s version; i.e. 4+ sv armour, stubborn, GW (possibly swap for halberds or vice versa) and with shields
—0-1 is going the way of the dinosaur in the newer books: the only real 0-1s are special characcters in recent books. Black Orcs, Eternal Guard, Greatswords, even Slayers are not 0-1. If Hammerers don’t qualify for 0-1, I don’t know what would.
—The Firefists were an experiment really. I would not be terribly insulted if they were scrapped for another unit. I wanted the Firefists to demonstate the difference between CDs and normal Dwarfs: the Dawi Zharr are more willing to compromise on defense in exchange for more offensive power. Note that you didn’t quite get them right Hobgoblyn: they can use the shield and extra hand weapon at the same time, but they don’t get the bonus armor save for HW+S. This means that they get 2 Attacks at WS4, S4, and a 4+ armor save. They used to be WS5, but that makes them almost as good as Chosen, which would make them too expensive to be viable.
—Revlid’s Temple Guard are well executed ruleswise, but that role is played by the Bull Centaurs if I’m not mistaken. There is already an elite unit devoted to the protection of the shrine of Hashut. A second elite infantry unit should be a place to break ground for Chaos Dwarf fluff and character.
Empire book may have eliminated it, but the Orc book did not (Big 'Uns), the Dwarf book did not…
Anyhow, if the unit isn’t 0-1 then in the very least only one unit may carry a magical banner…
they can use the shield and extra hand weapon at the same time, but they don’t get the bonus armor save for HW+S. This means that they get 2 Attacks at WS4, S4, and a 4+ armor save. They used to be WS5, but that makes them almost as good as Chosen, which would make them too expensive to be viable.
itcamefromthedeep
I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say here. You say they do use 2nd hand weapon and shield at the same time, but they don’t get the armor save for the Shield, but they do get the armor save for the Shield.
Can you explain it a bit better? I simplied it to 2 hand weapons and a shield, because if you are equipped like that then each turn you can choose whether you are using 2 hand weapons or hand weapon and shield…
They don’t get the bonus armour save for using a hand weapon and shield in combat. But they still get the regular save that the shield bestows upon them.
Empire book may have eliminated it, but the Orc book did not (Big 'Uns), the Dwarf book did not...
Hobgoblyn
---Big Un's can be used to represent normal Orcs, and Dwarf Ranges can be used as Dwarf Warriors. The idea is that no model needs to go to waste due to 0-1 restrictions. Hammers are not 0-1, Longbeards are not 0-1, Slayers are not 0-1, Black Orcs are not 0-1, Steam Tanks are not 0-1, Greatswords are not 0-1. All of these models are quite different from any other models in the army, so additional units that would have been relegated to the shelves in previous editions can now be used.
Anyhow, if the unit isn't 0-1 then in the very least only one unit may carry a magical banner...
---Sure, that's absolutely fine. LZ Temple Guard do not suffer that restriction, nor do many elite units of ther armies, but some do. I will make the necessary edit.
I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here. You say they do use 2nd hand weapon and shield at the same time, but they don't get the armor save for the Shield, but they do get the armor save for the Shield. Can you explain it a bit better? I simplied it to 2 hand weapons and a shield, because if you are equipped like that then each turn you can choose whether you are using 2 hand weapons or hand weapon and shield...
---Heavy armor , a hand weapon and shield gives you a 4+ save, and an addition al 1 in close combat (to the front). Firefists can use their shield for an extra Attack each, but then they do not recieve that additional point of armor save in close combat, so they have a 4+ save against shooting and in close combat (on all sides). Note that I referenced the rules for using a hand weapon and shield in close combat. I understand your confusion, though. Firefists use a shield that is really spiky and has blades, so they spend some time attacking with it and some time defending, so they do not get all the benefits of using as hand weapon and shield in close combat. Do you have any suggestions on how to clarify what I meant by this?
I am not sure that I like the idea of the firefists. I understand what ICFTD means and why he tried it, but I do not like armies to have too many special rules. Remove the halberds option for the Immortals. Have their obsidian weapons count as magical. Replace GW with morning star (one-handed, +1S. Could call it heavy mace or something if they are no longer in the rulebook). Then we can use both Immortals AND Temple Guard. Temple Guard are the more fodderish (i.e. more numerous, but less powerful) version of the Temple’s protectors and the Immortals are the super-warriors and veterans, etc. Temple guard can have banner, if only one unit can have it. Just my opinions.
—The fluff for Immortals does suggest great weapons, but halberds might qualify as well (even an axe that functions as a halberd).
—In terms of game effect, great weapons are much better on I2 models who will likely be striking last in later rounds of combat anyway.
—I really get why you might not be impressed with Firefists, and trust me I’m not going to defend them to the death, but they do bring something different to the table. Their special rule is not exactly complicated once you know what it does.
—Temple Guard work, but they need a change of name (to differentiate from the LZ Temple Guard), and I would appreciate a change of purpose, because guarding the temple is what the Bull Centaurs ar for. I would need a stronger fluff justification. give me more.
I am not sure that I like the idea of the firefists. I understand what ICFTD means and why he tried it, but I do not like armies to have too many special rules. Remove the halberds option for the Immortals. Have their obsidian weapons count as magical. Replace GW with morning star (one-handed, +1S. Could call it heavy mace or something if they are no longer in the rulebook). Then we can use both Immortals AND Temple Guard. Temple Guard are the more fodderish (i.e. more numerous, but less powerful) version of the Temple’s protectors and the Immortals are the super-warriors and veterans, etc. Temple guard can have banner, if only one unit can have it. Just my opinions.
