The rules for CDs do not specify that you pick a target- only that any model in the fire zone can be hit.
Then, the FAQ says that you cannot fire into a melee if your own troops are in the fire zone- but the only reason it gives is that only Skaven can fire when they might hit their own units.
Thus, if enemies in melee fall within the fire zone, there’s nothing preventing you from shooting.
Would it be any different if I was shooting at another unit just behind the one in melee? Either way, I still be hitting troops in melee.
You aren’t selecting a target. You’re merely finding what units fall within the fire zone- and if you read the FAQ, the only reason they give for you not firing into combat if your units are covered as well is that only Skaven can fire when they might hit their own units. That’s it. Nowhere do they say the very easy ‘You can’t shoot into melee’. They just say that CDs can’t fire when they might hit their own troops. Thus, if you have no chance of hitting your own units, there is nothing at all preventing you from using a Blunderbuss to fire into melee- as long as the ONLY units under the template are enemy.
"Can you fire Chaos Dwarf blunderbusses if there is a friendly unit in combat with an enemy in the zone of fire?"
To me, that’s saying "if there is a friendly unit…in the zone of fire…"
In catbarf’s examples, there wouldn’t be.
However, it could also be read the following way:
"if there is a…in combat with an enemy in the zone of fire."
So, if they’re in combat with the enemy which is in the zone of fire then you can’t fire.
There’s actually no way to tell the intent of that sentence, sadly, as either reading is perfectly valid. The “in the zone of fire” bit could be referring to the friendly unit or the enemy unit equally.
Q. Can you fire Chaos Dwarf blunderbusses if there is a friendly unit in combat with an enemy in the zone of fire? A. No, only Skaven can shoot when there is a chance of hitting their own units.
If there's no chance of hitting their own units, there's nothing stopping you from firing.
Think of it this way: What If my shot, aimed at another regiment, happened to clip the rear rank of a unit in combat? What then? Am I not allowed to fire because of that?
But, yes, I suppose it isn't really clear, and we could debate all day for nothing. Way to go, GW :rolleyes:
To me, that's saying "if there is a friendly unit...in the zone of fire..."
um yes... if you exclude about half the words in the question you can make it say what you want...
"if there is a....in combat with an enemy in the zone of fire."
this is closer... and if you include all of the words in the question the meaning does not change... i think you may be on to some thing here...
Think of it this way: What If my shot, aimed at another regiment, happened to clip the rear rank of a unit in combat? What then? Am I not allowed to fire because of that?
of course you cannot... the FAQ prohibits it...
there is nothing unclear... only skaven can shoot at models in CC... BB are not skaven... therefore they may not fire...
um yes... if you exclude about half the words in the question you can make it say what you want...
metro_gnome
Uh...no, that isn't what I meant. I was leaving some of the phrase out for clarity so that the reading I was demonstrating was clearer.
Look at the sentence: you can read it in two ways, depending on who the "in the fire zone" bit applies to.
Either it applies to the friendly units: "A friendly unit (in combat with the enemy) in the fire zone".
Or it applies just to the enemy units: "A friendly unit in combat with (the enemy in the fire zone)".
You're reading it in the second way; if the enemy that are fighting the friendly units are in the fire zone, that you can't target them.
Catbarf is reading it the first way; if the enemy (and only the enemy) are in the fire zone, then they can be targetted, as long as no friendly models are.
See what I'm getting at? The sentence works both ways.
You cannot fire into CC due to the “swirling melee” concept. There’s no way that blunderbussiers would be able to specifically target the enemy, while avoiding shooting their own members. Page 26 of the BRB clearly states this.
I suppose what you’re getting at is that if you were to come up from behind a unit that was in close combat, and the 12" firing zone had their models in it, but not yours, you could fire? Incorrect. No one can fire into Close Combat (hence the “risk of hitting your own troops”) but Skaven.
If there are any friendly models in the firing zone, the blunderbussiers are unable to fire, due to the risk of hitting your own troops. If a unit is is close combat, you are unable to fire, due to the risk of hitting your own troops. No disrespect intended (I’m not being a bunghole, it’s just that internet forums aren’t very good at communicating tones of voice :)) but I don’t see how you could read the FAQ any other way. That question was intended to clarify that blunderbussiers cannot shoot when there is a risk of hitting friendly models (either in CC, or in the firing zone).
In this picture, the large blue unit is in combat with the large red unit. Even though the lone blue unit (let’s say he’s an archer), does not have line of sight to friendly units, he cannot shoot into the fray, due to the risk of hitting his own troops.
I hope this clears up any misconceptions about the Blunderbussiers and reasons that you’re not allowed to shoot into close combat.
Good luck with your Dawi Zharr in the future! :cheers
Well you obviously aren’t reading it both ways, since one way makes it sound like you can’t shoot if your own unit is engaged in combat with enemy in the fire zone, and the other one says you can’t shoot if just the enemy are in the fire zone.
I don’t think I can explain it any better. Catbarf’s (perfectly valid) reading of the FAQ means that you can target enemy in combat, since it specifies only that no friendly units need be in the fire zone.
Your (also perfectly valid) reading says that you can’t fire on enemy in the fire zone if they’re in combat.
There’s no way to know the intent, though there are other reasons to believe that you’re probably right.
Well you obviously aren't reading it both ways, since one way makes it sound like you can't shoot if your own unit is engaged in combat with enemy in the fire zone, and the other one says you can't shoot if just the enemy are in the fire zone.
Thommy H
you are correct... they both say you cannot shoot! there is no allowance here... only restriction...
I don't think I can explain it any better. Catbarf's (perfectly valid) reading of the FAQ means that you can target enemy in combat, since it specifies only that no friendly units need be in the fire zone.
no it doesn't... the faq says you cant...
Your (also perfectly valid) reading says that you can't fire on enemy in the fire zone if they're in combat.
my reading is unimportant... nothing gives BBs the ability to ignore the normal rules for shooting at units in CC... so they may not... the FAQ is restating the obvious...
There's no way to know the intent, though there are other reasons to believe that you're probably right.
the answer to the FAQ is "No"... so that is the intent... clever hopeful reading will not give you what you want...
Alright, I’m not going to debate this anymore. I can’t explain it any more ways - nor is the outcome of particular importance or interest to me - the sentence can be read both ways; even a cursory glance at it will reveal that. Continually reiterating the ‘no’ element doesn’t help because that’s not even the contentious bit; we need to know what it’s saying ‘no’ to - shooting into combat full stop, or shooting into combat in such a way that the fire zone covers friendly models.
But obviously you aren’t interested in actually listening to what I’m saying or in having a closer look at the wording to see the issue.
For the record, I’m not reading it either way, merely acknowledging that, grammatically speaking, the sentence’s meaning is unclear. I have no ulterior motive here (except for possibly a crusade to make Games Workshop write rules better).
Better rules writing is all thats needed with gw having lots of badly written sentances ,i couldnt do any better grammatically, langauge is a two edged sword.Reading it either way is unimportant because we all know there intent was not to allow bb to fire into enemys units that��were engaged in combat regardless of whether the freindly unit was in the firezone.
Back on thread
earthshakers are great for protecting blunders not just disrupting enemy fire(a risk with bbs) but slowing down the enemy enough to get of those all important blasts.They can also protect the earthshaker from fliers and surprises by turning and firing (especially if there is a hobbo unit hovering around there front to draw the enemy away )
(One last post before this thread completely derails. My sincere apologies, catbarf.)
I responded kindly in my post, but got fired back at with criticism. Lighten up, grab a beer, then read this post.
The reason given is that you can’t shoot into CC because you have “…a chance of hitting [your] own units”, which is the exact same reason given in the BRB of why you can’t shoot into Close Combat. There are plenty of other things one could go on about GW ambiguities, but this is not one of them.
The reason that they gave us for not shooting into close combat corresponds with the reason given in the Rulebook.
One could read the sentence as if you could shoot into close combat, if the rulebook didn’t already state that you can’t.
Ok, Here is how The U.S. GT Judges ruled the Blunderbuss I know that this isn’t an end all be all to the discussion but its a good reasoning of the issue.
Firstly, the Fire Zone was deemed to be used EXACTLY as a Template an not as a normal shooting attack. and following those rules we have the following. If a Unit of BB stand and shoot and if any portion of that Zone/template hits a units of friendlies the shot is lost as it couldn’t be fired in a situation where a friendly model is in the zone.
If However, The Zone doesn’t have a Friendly Model in the zone the shots are fired as per normal. BUT, If the Zone over Laps an enemy unit which is in combat with a friendly, you take the number of models in the zone lets say for example 4 enemy models involved in the combat are in the zone. You would roll 4 dice and randomize the hits between the Enemy Unit AND the Friendly unit then roll to wound as normal.
If in the shooting phase so long as there is a VALID target to “target” the zone at you may shoot and its the same as above… but if there isn’t an unengaged enemy unit within the zone and only the unit in combat the shots are again lost.
Basically, their ruling was as follows. You can’t purposely fire into your own models but may accidentally do so, Just as long as there was a valid “target” to shoot at.
Personally, and our local Area house rules define this basically, IF there is even a 0.000000000000001 chance of you hitting a friendly unit the shots are lost. Simple and Plain. You as the Player should have been more careful to make sure you couldn’t hit your own models.
I would say in ending define a house rule with your area players to something everyone agrees on and when you play at Rogue Traders, Game Tournaments & the like to make sure to get a judge’s ruling before play begins.
A breath weapon is the closest equivalent and it cannot be used against models in combat. The next closest is normal shooting, which also cannot be used against models in combat. Are there some other rules that would allow you to? I can’t find it.
You can’t use the FAQ as some kind of allowance - it says specifically when you can’t fire and nothing else.
