[Archive] Tactics of the Dawi Zharr

metro_gnome:

well servius has it…
there has to be a valid target… and engaged models are not valid targets…
this FAQ does not allow anything… this FAQ is a restriction…
and in fact just restates the BRB for those too beardy to read it…

to creatively and legally abuse this FAQ however look at the LoS rules for BBs…
if say there is a unit of friendlies behind an unengaged enemy unit…

FFFFFF
FFFFFF

EEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEE

BBBBBBB
BBBBBBB
the BBs may fire in this instance… as they cannot draw LoS to the friendly unit so they dont know its there…
as per the FAQ…
FFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFFFF

EEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEE

BBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBB
they cannot fire in this instance… as they can draw LoS to the friendly unit so they do know its there…
as per the FAQ…
FFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFF
EEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEE

BBBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBBB
they cannot fire in this instance… even if only the last rank of enemies fall under the template…
because the enemy is engaged… as per the BRB and the FAQ…

you can apply this to soft cover terrain like forests aswell:
EEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEE

FFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFF
FFFFF
F

BBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBB
Here the BBs can shoot through the forest (of course without penalty) to the enemy unit behind…
because they can draw LoS to them…
EEEEEE
EEEEEE

FFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFF
FFFFF
F

BBBBBBB
BBBBBBB
here they cannot shoot at the enemy because they dont know they are there…

catbarf:

Sure, you can shoot. The Blunderbuss doesn’t specify a target unit, so you can fire just for the hell of it if you like.

Ah, what the heck. I see the ruling on breath weapons, and this seems similar. I’ll remove the paragraph entirely.

metro_gnome:

good…

Rootbeer:

It would make sense that a blunderbuss unit’s favored target is an infantry block. Lets say we face 15 blunderbussers off with 20 orc biguns with shield and command, both about 180 points…

If the BBs get to just within 12" they can shoot the orc front rank, the orcs move up 8", BBs shoot all the orc ranks, then the orcs charge. If the BBS are lucky on getting that first shot at 11 and 3/4 inches then they can move back 1.5 inches and get a stand and shoot on the orcs, not likely. Numbers would look like… 5 shot at, 2-3 hits, 1-2 wounded and dead, followed by 18 shot at, 9 hit, 5-6 wounded and die, for a total of say 8 dead before the 12 orcs hit, 6 attacks hitting 3, wounding and killing 1-2, so combat is close to a push and no clear winner. This tells me the Blunders must have backup to countercharge, or if they can, flee and hope to rally, and throw a different unit into close combat.

It would also seem better to move up to get more models in the 12" range, while still staying out of 1/2 charge distance to allow a stand and shoot. Shoot 20 orcs once and get 10 hits, likely 6 wounded and dead for a panic test, then when they charge you shoot the 14, hitting 7, wound and kill 4 more, another panic test, and if you did better the remaining orcs number under 10 and are easily beat in combat with your 2 ranks and outnumber.

The situation looks worse the more attacks each enemy model gets, the faster it moves, the fewer in number it is like cav, or the more heavily armored.

The situation is much better for the BBs if you can soften the enemy with other fire first, or hit behind the enemy with the earthshaker to slow them down. Dont guess short on the earthshaker when the enemy unit closes in on the BBs, or you may make your BBs unable to shoot by it’s area effect.

In any case, if you can hit a whole unit, you will hit half and wound more than a 1/4 in total for a panic test, given they dont have great armor.

Hope this rambling made sense.

Rootbeer:

I was just thinking it may be possible to effect a situation where blunderbussers can shoot an enemy unit, but the enemy are forced to charge another unit, like Wolves. The wolves Wturn away from the center mass of the enemy and flee off to the right, leading the enemy E off such that the blunders may get another shot in their flank. Assuming the wolves rally, they are fast cav and can move to another irritational baiting

__EEEEE

__EEEEE

__EEEEE

______WWWWW

______WWWWW

BBBBB

BBBBB

metro_gnome:

this only works in this unlikely clipping situation…

if your wolfboyz flee through your BBs they die…

catbarf:

It would make sense that a blunderbuss unit's favored target is an infantry block. Lets say we face 15 blunderbussers off with 20 orc biguns with shield and command, both about 180 points..

If the BBs get to just within 12" they can shoot the orc front rank, the orcs move up 8", BBs shoot all the orc ranks, then the orcs charge. If the BBS are lucky on getting that first shot at 11 and 3/4 inches then they can move back 1.5 inches and get a stand and shoot on the orcs, not likely. Numbers would look like.. 5 shot at, 2-3 hits, 1-2 wounded and dead, followed by 18 shot at, 9 hit, 5-6 wounded and die, for a total of say 8 dead before the 12 orcs hit, 6 attacks hitting 3, wounding and killing 1-2, so combat is close to a push and no clear winner. This tells me the Blunders must have backup to countercharge, or if they can, flee and hope to rally, and throw a different unit into close combat.

It would also seem better to move up to get more models in the 12" range, while still staying out of 1/2 charge distance to allow a stand and shoot. Shoot 20 orcs once and get 10 hits, likely 6 wounded and dead for a panic test, then when they charge you shoot the 14, hitting 7, wound and kill 4 more, another panic test, and if you did better the remaining orcs number under 10 and are easily beat in combat with your 2 ranks and outnumber.

The situation looks worse the more attacks each enemy model gets, the faster it moves, the fewer in number it is like cav, or the more heavily armored.

The situation is much better for the BBs if you can soften the enemy with other fire first, or hit behind the enemy with the earthshaker to slow them down. Dont guess short on the earthshaker when the enemy unit closes in on the BBs, or you may make your BBs unable to shoot by it's area effect.

In any case, if you can hit a whole unit, you will hit half and wound more than a 1/4 in total for a panic test, given they dont have great armor.

Hope this rambling made sense.

Rootbeer
They're very powerful troops. However, their effectiveness is multiplied exponentially when combined with an Earthshaker. Overall, you want to keep them out of combat, though- they're much better at shooting than melee.

Almost done with the Hobgob entry. It will be up soon.

catbarf:

TACTICS: HOBGOBLINS

Hobgoblins. Compared to the Chaos Dwarfs, they’re relatively fast, relatively strong, easily hurt, and cowardly. One thing, however, that is not relative is their low cost. They’re cheap compared to EVERYTHING. And this gives them such wonderful roles when paired with the expensive Chaos Dwarfs. Let’s go into some detail about the differences:

1. They’re fast(er). While M4 doesn’t seem great, it allows them to maneuver and a much better rate than CDs. However, the biggest advantage is in charging. Whereas a CD unit might not be able to charge the enemy due to the pathetic M3, a Hobgob unit can charge any infantry that can charge it. This means that you can actually go on the offensive with the blighters, and be able to maneuver at close range. It’s a big advantage.

2. They’re strong(er). S3 isn’t great, but do remember that it is the same S as the Chaos Dwarfs- which cost 4� times more. So, for the same cost, you get 4.5 times(!) the firepower of the average CD. This means that whereas CDs will be used as an anchor, easily defending against attacks with their T4 and 3+ save, Hobgoblins are much more suited to going offensively to attack enemy infantry. We’ll get to this in a moment.

3. They’re less tough(er? Nahhh). T3 and no armor means they drop like flies when hit. Coupled with #2, this means you have a powerful unit that must be protected from enemy fire. However, this is exactly the opposite of what we’re going to do.

4. They’re cowardly. With Ld6, you need to keep them close to a unit with Banner of Slavery at all times. At Ld6, there is a 41.7% chance of the unit fleeing. With a re-roll, this changes to 66%. This is a huge bonus.

5. They’re cheap. At 2pts per model, you can very affordably field several large units for the price of a small unit of CDs- and I guarantee those Hobgobs will be more effective.

Now, we must look at equipment. We have bows, light armor, shields, and wolves to choose from. Wolves will be for another article, but the others I can do here.

Bows can be useful. They aren’t the pathetically useless shortbows of Goblins, but they aren’t as good as Crossbows or Handguns. So why use them? Because, quite simply, they’re cheap and we have no other choice.

CDs lack midrange missile troops. The only missile options are Blunderbussiers, which are short-ranged, and the Hobgobs. Hobgoblin bows are weak, inaccurate at BS3, and unlikely to kill much. However, they’re the only missile troops that can reach out to more than 12", and they’re cheap, so they should be a serious consideration for any CD army.

For bowmen, you have two roles. The first is light harassment fire- take ten, put them in a line, and find somewhere in your battle line to stuff ‘em where they can annoy infantry blocks and cavalry- not too shabby for a 50-point unit. The other use is for massed ranged fire. Get 20 or more, put them in two ranks, find a hill, and spam anyone who comes near. This can be very effective in actually doing damage- again, a unit of 20 is very cheap (100pts), but if that unit of 20 fires on a unit of Empire Halberdiers 24" away they’ll get 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds, and 2.77 kills. Although that is only a meager 13.85 points, seeing as that is 1/7 of the shooting units’ cost from one round of shooting, I think that’s pretty good- especially for Hobgoblins, whose uselessness is legendary.

Now, let’s look at the armor options. If you have a choice between shields and armor, go for the shields. However, it is most effective to use them both in concert- in melee, it grants a 4+ save, doubling their survivability for double the cost.

“Ross, why do that? By using unarmored troops, we get double the number of attacks for the same cost!” True. However, Hobgoblins will not win a fight by getting kills- they win a fight by static combat resolution. Thus, you need ranks, a standard, a flanking unit to deny their ranks and hopefully outnumbering. However, despite an increased likelihood of outnumbering the enemy, having a big unit of naked hobbos will hardly get any more kills, and will get slaughtered in enormous quantities such that your opponent might win the fight despite your ranks and flanking. On top of this, an enormous unit will be much harder to maneuver and get into combat- especially when your Move is a paltry 4.

So, similar to the ranged Hobgobs, there are two roles for CC Hobgoblins- meatshield and melee.

The meatshield Hobgoblin is essentially a naked hobbo (no armor). Take a unit of ten (for 20pts) and set them up to screen from missile fire, block your flanks, or die horribly so that your CDs can be a little safer. I got a small gem from Cornixt’s website (Obsidian Halls) that had in turn been adapted from a quote by an O&G player- ‘Think of them not as individual troops- think of them more as 2pt ‘extra wound’ upgrades for a Chaos Dwarf Warrior." While this analogy isn’t exactly accurate (it’s another wound at T3 with no armor save.) the basic premise is correct. Hobgoblins are meant to die instead of your Chaos Dwarfs, and if the CDs make it into combat unharmed then the Hobbos have made their points back.

The other role is as a light/medium melee unit. By using a standard, full ranks, and both armor upgrades, you get a unit that is cheap enough to be a diversion, support or flanking unit, but also tough enough to act (in a very limited fashion) on its’ own. This unit will not be breaking enemy units, but my maximizing CR and survivability you ensure that the enemy unit will not win combat by a large margin- and by staying near the General and/or a Banner of Slavery you can be certain they will not flee. However, they can win combats- either with help or as help. By this, I mean that the support of a unit of Bull Centaurs or Wolf Riders into the enemy flank will be enough for you to win the fight- but also, since the Hobgobs are so damn cheap, you can use them in concert with a CD unit to flank the enemy and win with ease. Thus, they are a melee unit that is cheap, but by supporting other units can break and route even the toughest of infantry.

Numbers are up to you. A large unit of meatshields is hard to get into position, and might break, leaving quite a bit exposed. On the other hand, a small unit may be blown away before the CDs can get into melee. Likewise, while a large unit of melee Hobbos is likely to get the outnumbering bonus, it’s unwieldy and hard to get into position. Generally, I use 10 naked hobbos for a meatshield unit, and 20 for a melee unit- but everyone has their preference.

Command is the last thing I will discuss. I usually use just a Standard for a unit of melee Hobgobs, or no command for a screen unit. The reasoning is simple- the other upgrades aren’t worth their points. Why tack on a 30pt command for a unit that costs only 80pts? The standard is only worth it because the Hobgobs need all the static combat resolution they can get. Thus, 10pts for +1 CR is a steal. However, ties are infrequent, and since this unit will rarely need the +1 for rallying (Banner of Slavery gives you a 2/3 chance at Ld6 anyway), the musician is fairly useless. The champion isn’t effective because of his high cost relative to his stats, but also because an enemy unit can challenge him and overkill him for easy CR. While this tactic does work for CDs, which are much tougher, Hobgobs just don’t have the same reliance. It’s better for the unit to lose four troops, barely lose the combat and stay in the fight than it is for the champion to get overkilled and lose the fight by a large margin.

And this finishes up the Hobgoblins article. Everyone uses theirs differently, so please tell me your uses and thoughts on the matter. Wolf Riders will not be next (because of the time it will take to compile everything), but I think I might do one of the pieces of artillery.

Rootbeer:

As Ive said before I think for a melee unit you should drop the banner and go 30 naked hobgobs, a whopping 60 points for 3 ranks and outnumber.

Take 20 with shield, armor and banner for 90 points, lose one to shooting and you lose a rank, now you have 2 ranks and banner… and losing the outnumber in combat res is like giving up 2 points, cause your opponent gets it. If the unit has a banner it becomes worth +100 VP so a smart opponent might throw something at it that can blow through it… easy 190 pts compared to chewy CDs.

If you are gonna dump points in a middleweight unit, maybe go with orc boyz, T4, LA, and choppas, 5pts!

catbarf:

Orc Boyz are more expensive and easier to kill than Hobgobs with armor and shields. Despite their greater power, S4 in the first round of combat only is not enough to compensate for their vulnerability. They aren’t a good middleweight unit because once the first round of combat is over, they have miniscule staying power, resorting to S3 and having very little protection. True, they can do damage on the charge- but if they are the ones that get hit, they will die. Simple as that.

10 S3 hits against armored Hobbos will get 5 wounds and 2.5 kills. That’s 10pts of damage.
10 S3 hits against Orcs with light armor will get 3.33 wounds and 2.77 kills. That’s 13.85 points of damage.

You say that I’ll lose outnumbering and a rank because I’ll get shot up. Well, there’s an equal likelihood that I can do the same to my opponent, so that argument doesn’t hold up. The fact remains that Hobgobs, even with armor, are one of the cheapest infantry units in the game, meaning that in any sort of fair test (one which uses equal points on both sides) the Hobgobs will almost always have outnumbering.

As I said in the article, naked hobgobs as melee troops are nearly useless because they die so easily your opponent gets a whole bunch of free kills- and thus free CR.

If the enemy would get 2 kills against armored hobgobs, that’s 4 kills against unarmored ones- which easily makes up for the possible loss of rank bonus and possible loss of outnumbering of the armored ones.

As I said in the article, Hobgobs will not win fights on their own. You need them to be in a combat with a supporting unit. Thus, even if they flee, the opponent won’t capture the standard unless your secondary unit flees as well.

Let’s take a look. We have a block of 25 (5x5) armored Hobgobs with standard against 20 (5x4) Empire Spearmen with standard (both roughly equal points).

So, the Hobgobs charge, and hit first. They get 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 1.04 kills.

8.96 Spearmen strike back. 8.96 attacks, 4.48 hits, 2.24 wounds, 1.12 kills.

Hobgobs have outnumbering and still three full ranks, Spearmen lost one rank. Thus, CR for Hobgobs is 5.04, and CR for Spearmen is 3.12. Hobgobs win by 2.

Now let’s do the same thing, only using a unit of 55 naked hobgobs, arranged 10x5. Oops, because of the tiny frontage of the Spearmen, only 7 of those guys can attack. So, hobgobs get the charge somehow despite their enormous, unwieldy unit size, and get 7 attacks.

7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds, 1.46 kills.

Spearmen have 8.54 attacks. They get 4.27 hits, 2.135 kills.

Hobgobs have outnumbering and full ranks. Spearmen have lost a rank, but have a standard. Thus, the Hobgobs have 5.46 CR, and the Spearmen have 5.135 CR. The Hobgobs win by roughly .33.

So, the naked hobgobs won by a very narrow margin, and due to the enormous unit size will be nearly impossible to get into combat without being flanked, shot up, or simply avoided. No thanks.

Yes, if you want, you can get a unit with outnumbering and ranks for 60pts, but that unit won’t kill anything, will take a large number of casualties in return, and won’t win the combat.

ross_lionheart:

:hat Please keep the tactical advice coming!

catbarf:

Thanks. I’m not sure what to do next, any suggestions?

Draconis:

Orcs, all of em. Go through the Orcs since we are currently on Greenskins discussion. It seems a good idea to keep the length of that vein of thought going since we are debating it.

Should increase knowledge quite a bit.

ross_lionheart:

Thanks. I'm not sure what to do next, any suggestions?

catbarf
I think you could discuss the following troops:

1. Hobgoblin Wolf Riders
2. Orcs/Big Uns/ Black Orcs
3. Hobgoblin Bolt throwers
4. Earthshaker Cannon
5. Bull Centaurs
6. Character choices such as Bull Centaur Lord

catbarf:

Sounds like a plan. I’ll keep going with the greenskins.

I think I’m going to wait on the Wolf Riders, however- I’ll stick with the infantry for now as I collect all my thoughts into a coherent [readable] form. The Wolf Riders by far require the most tactics to use.

Rootbeer:

My thoughts on wolf riders… taking more than 10 in a unit would be silly. Musician is a good idea if you use them a I do, bait and flee. Figure on a flee roll to average 10 so dont get closer than your opponents charge range minus 10. Never charge with them unless the opponent is rediculously soft. Set them up to bait charges that will either slow your opponent down by preventing a march move, or make your opponent charge in a way that will expose their flank. Bows arent likely to make back their points, but can be an annoyance, I prefer only a musician.

Wolf riders are one of the most dependable defences we have vs cav IMO

Canix:

On hobbos as stated earlier the unarmoured ones are your meatshield who will always flee when charged so are useful for drawing enemy units where you want them like in front of bb’s and who cares if they keep running or get overrun as long as there suitably in advance of your line.

The light armour shield hobbos work well flanking CD units as they wont usually take a charge from tooled up opponents but could if needed, i prefer more hobbos rather than std 100vp’s ouch!

Bow hobbos are not the only medium range missile troops as orc arrer boyz are only one point more and can really help cleaning up any mess by charging into combat(as its cheesy to have 8 hobbo BT’s there can be enough special slots).I prefer orc arrer boyz to watch over my precious ES as they can cause problems for enemy fliers when used wisely.

Nice thread Catbarf:hat off

Now hobbo wolfboyz are the flankers of the CD force

they can be tooled up with std if you are putting a hero in there(Hobbo or BC) if baiters the musc is the only addition worth taking and to be honest i dont bother.

I liketwo units one combat and one baiter,light armour and shield is essential regardless of the role tho:hat:exclamation:

metro_gnome:

its a shame n00bs will have to listen to this drivel…

80 hobgoblins are better than 40 hobgoblins… always…

you want this thread for orcs…

https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/5666

Draconis:

its a shame n00bs will have to listen to this drivel...
80 hobgoblins are better than 40 hobgoblins... always...

you want this thread for orcs...
https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/5666

metro_gnome
What you personally consider drivel others consider useful information.

80 Naked hobgoblins are nothing but a minor hiccup, whereas 40 of them fully armored actually resemble something capable of holding things still for a bit or acting as a speed bump.

Put clearly, I think you are an individual that just plays this game to win. You seem to forget that some of us do this for the hobby, and shock of all things, to have fun. For BOTH individuals on the sides of the table.

ross_lionheart:

What you personally consider drivel others consider useful information.

80 Naked hobgoblins are nothing but a minor hiccup, whereas 40 of them fully armored actually resemble something capable of holding things still for a bit or acting as a speed bump.

Put clearly, I think you are an individual that just plays this game to win. You seem to forget that some of us do this for the hobby, and shock of all things, to have fun. For BOTH individuals on the sides of the table.
:hat I've actually found metros advice to be more informative than anybody elses on this forum or anyother forum on the net, so perhaps you should show him some respect.