1 turn of shooting is not much defense against a unit with 70+ wounds. And since they're flyers, you can't redirect them. I honestly don't know of any army, Vampire Counts included, that could take that charge. Even fully buffed Chosen would lose. Flying monsterous infantry skirmishers - thanks GW....
Grimbold Blackhammer
The two magma cannons could potentially (but unlikely) wipe the unit out in one turn hitting half the unit each! you only need a clip on the template and str 5 D3 wounds could ruin them. Especially if combined with ash storm to double those wounds as well as slowing them down.
^ Exactly. Add in some fireglaive fire (all should be able to shoot if all the Vargheists can fight) and a Hellcannon shot and you have a severely depleted horde.
It’s certainly not unreasonable to clear out the entire back rank in an average round of shooting with the list he has.
Also, doesn’t each Varghiest have 3 wounds, so in total the unit only has 54 wounds?
Assuming a unit of only 12 (still devastating) reaches the Chaos Dwarfs (remember stand and shoot) then it’s 42 attacks, of which 21 will miss on average causing average only 14 wounds which the heavily armored stunties will then have the opportunity to save before striking back and with their fire glaives they can actually hurt the flying beasties.
Basically, to lose a full unit in one round is incredibly unlucky, even vs the full horde. The army list posted has more than enough shooting to cripple the beasts.
Yeah, they’re the definition of a glass cannon. They hit hard, but they have T4 and no armour, so pretty much anything is going to make a mess of them, as long as you manage to get them in your line of fire. Using them as a horde is actually a really awful tactic, although it worked in this instance - Vargheists aren’t optimised for taking on any opponent that can hit back; they’re for hunting war machines and other vulnerable small units. I think you were just unlucky.
I honestly don't know of any army, Vampire Counts included, that could take that charge
Ethereals laugh in their faces...
A horde of Crypt Horrors could probably take it too.
Horde of Trolls.
My horde of Witch Elves would do horrendous things to that unit. Like, you'd have to censor it if any small children were around.
Its far from the bentest thing in the game. A fat block of 30-40 IG with shields with a BSB would hold it. Keep the BSB on the end so only 2-3 Gheists can hit him, and make sure he has a ward or re-rollable save, dying to str 5 hits is shameful as a dwarf. Then flank it, big time.
Other than an army of flame cannons how the hell to you take this kind of army down?
I personally think Vargheists are powerful but fine and quite balanced for the reasons Thommy mentioned.
One more time, I just have to say that I’m so glad to see a sizeable vampire counts army with…
NO Ghouls (except the ghoulking in this case)
A whole bunch of skeletons, zombies and dire wolves (good 3 different core choice army)…
NO Graveguard…
Glorious day!!
Good work Games Workshop.
Back to the Vargheist horde, while enough IG/Ironsworn can pump them, they’d really struggle with a Destroyer as they’d still need a 6 to hurt it and no stomps. Meanshile the Destroyer should kill enough to cause some major crumblage. Not that I like the Destroyer/approve of this but just saying. I’d give a Destroyer a decent shot of taking out that whole horde!!
Agreed, a destroyer would make a mess of them. I do disagree though with your assessment of the amount of damage the magma cannon will do. They are on 40mm bases with a space in between each one, add in the randomness of the template placement and I’d consider you lucky to kill 2 with a single shot. As for how much damage the horde can do on the charge; let’s not forget that the vc’s have access to a reroll to wound spell, a reroll to hit spell, and a spell that can hand out an extra attack. I think it is pretty unreasonable to assume that our meager magic defense can shut out their entire casting phase on a regular basis.
Also on the subject of the ID standing and shooting, not anymore, check the faq.
They are on 40mm bases with a space in between each one, add in the randomness of the template placement and I'd consider you lucky to kill 2 with a single shot.
mistrmoon
I usually end up dealing around 18 wounds per magma cannon shot to my local Ogre Kingdoms player's hordes. He has switched off horde of ogres (really a scary thing) just because of it.
Always aim so that your just barely touching the first 2 models in the unit, then you'll get 4-6" averagely added, which is perfect for hitting even a small unit of ogres.
They are on 40mm bases with a space in between each one, add in the randomness of the template placement and I'd consider you lucky to kill 2 with a single shot.
mistrmoon
I usually end up dealing around 18 wounds per magma cannon shot to my local Ogre Kingdoms player's hordes. He has switched off horde of ogres (really a scary thing) just because of it.
Always aim so that your just barely touching the first 2 models in the unit, then you'll get 4-6" averagely added, which is perfect for hitting even a small unit of ogres.
Ogre_Mage
They SKIRMISH.
Did you miss the part where he said there is "a space between each one?"
They are on 40mm bases with a space in between each one, add in the randomness of the template placement and I'd consider you lucky to kill 2 with a single shot.
mistrmoon
I usually end up dealing around 18 wounds per magma cannon shot to my local Ogre Kingdoms player's hordes. He has switched off horde of ogres (really a scary thing) just because of it.
Always aim so that your just barely touching the first 2 models in the unit, then you'll get 4-6" averagely added, which is perfect for hitting even a small unit of ogres.
Ogre_Mage
I cannot fathom how you could possibly do 18 wounds in one go even without the spaces between models. Math hammer attack:
13.5 ogres hit, wounding on a 3+ with no saves = 9 wounds, average of 2 wounds on the d3 roll = 18 wounds total.
Is it even possible to hit 13-14 ogres with one flame template?
It is, as you just need to ‘touch’. It’d have to be like perfect though, with the round nub at the end catching like 6 or something.
With that mathhammer, he could have just rolled really well for the multiwounds.
Do Varghiests actually skirmish? All the pics of them i’ve seen has them lined up together with no space. The skirmish rules don’t really make much sense for them I don’t think.
Does that mean that if say you have 30 skirmishing skinks or Shades or whatever and you charge/get charged they can fight in horde format?
Does that mean that if say you have 30 skirmishing skinks or Shades or whatever and you charge/get charged they can fight in horde format?
ChungEssence
To quote the BRB "skirmishers always count as having zero ranks, and therefore cannot claim a rank bonus, be steadfast, or disorder an enemy with a flank or rear attack - they make supporting attacks as normal, however"
So yes they could fight in horde! Although they have to be set up in a skirmish horde when not in combat which would take up a lot of space.
All units with the Fly special rule also have the Skirmish special rule, yes. They get no rank bonus, and can’t disrupt ranks themselves, but they still form up like other units in combat and so can be a horde.
It is, as you just need to 'touch'. It'd have to be like perfect though, with the round nub at the end catching like 6 or something.
With that mathhammer, he could have just rolled really well for the multiwounds.
Do Varghiests actually skirmish? All the pics of them i've seen has them lined up together with no space. The skirmish rules don't really make much sense for them I don't think.
Does that mean that if say you have 30 skirmishing skinks or Shades or whatever and you charge/get charged they can fight in horde format?
ChungEssence
I lined up a unit and stacked them on the template and managed to get 15 out of a 5x5 block but some of the models were being touched by maybe a 1mm^2 or a little less. I've also never seen a 5 deep ogre unit. So yes at the exact right angle with a perfect shot you can do 18ish wounds but to 'usually' do 18 is a bit unrealistic.
So for hitting the vargheist horde I would consider it a ver lucky shot to tag 5 models.
As has been said before, The destroyer + ash storm. Possibly the chaos dwarfs best answer to anything with more than 1 wound.
Edit: Just played some theory hammer, the horde takes about 28 wounds in the first round of combat (including crumbling) with the destroyer taking 1, second round is similar but with less chance of damage to the destroyer, the third round is when the horde dies.