[Archive] The chalice experiment

maded12:

We’ve all wanted to build something different and I’m no exception to that rule. So yesterday I decided to go for something entirely different. I build a list focused around the chalice and magic.

I’ll first post my 2400 pts list:

1 prophet
enchanted shield
talisman of preservation
lore of death lvl 4
Riding a bale taurus

5 lvl 1 deamon smiths with the lore of fire

1 with a chalice of blood and darkness
1 with a forbidden rod
1 with a power stone
1 with a channeling staf
1 with nothing (except for some big cahouna’s)

I took 2 blocks of 35 hobgoblins with extra HW and a standard bearer
and 2 blocks of 30 hobgoblins with extra HW and a standard bearer

3 death shrieker missles

1 k’daai destroyer

My opponent was a skaven player. I had a blast playing this list. And it did what it was supposed to do. Decimate rank and file troops. One memorable turn was the second turn. On the second turn I rolled 11 with the winds. Chalice took 3 from him and 1 from me. So he ended up with 3 dice vs my 10.
I used my lvl 4 for a nice little purple sun through 4 big slave blocks. Getting back my 6 dice I used to cast it with (note that I killed well over 40 models (yes a whole whopping 80pts died) )

Then I targeted 2 units of storm vermins with medium fire balls (to get the +3) and used the other 3 to create big balls of fire. I honestly don’t remember how many vermin died but it it was a very nice sight.

In the end though I still lost because I still couldn’t kill them fast enough. I litteraly killed hundreds of them and they still kept comming.  

This list can create some really backbreaking magic phases and the 3 deathshriekers are really nice vs skaven.

I didn’t want to rely on a single very expensive dwarf block without a BSB. And taking a BSB would mean taking 1 less wizard. So for this fight I took a pure hobbo list. They stayed in the bauble for most of the game (18inch bauble ftw:D) So they got to test on ld 10 most of the time.

For my next list I’m going to drop 1 mage and the shriekers in favor of some BC’s. I’m going to test if 2 units of bc’s are better then 3 shriekers. The reasoning is very simple. Shriekers kill lots of skaven but they need to kill more then 25 just to get their points back. I want to see if some bull centaurs with higher speed and a possible flank charge can break those massive blocks.

maded12:

Something I forgot to add, at the end of turn 5 I had lost 3 smiths to miscasts and 1 to the forbidden rod. That’s 400 pts of suicides and I’m not yet sure if it was worth that in the end.

maded12:

We’ve all wanted to build something different and I’m no exception to that rule. So yesterday I decided to go for something entirely different. I build a list focused around the chalice and magic.

I’ll first post my 2400 pts list:

1 prophet
enchanted shield
talisman of preservation
lore of death lvl 4
Riding a bale taurus

5 lvl 1 deamon smiths with the lore of fire

1 with a chalice of blood and darkness
1 with a forbidden rod
1 with a power stone
1 with a channeling staf
1 with nothing (except for some big cahouna’s)

I took 2 blocks of 35 hobgoblins with extra HW and a standard bearer
and 2 blocks of 30 hobgoblins with extra HW and a standard bearer

3 death shrieker missles

1 k’daai destroyer

My opponent was a skaven player. I had a blast playing this list. And it did what it was supposed to do. Decimate rank and file troops. One memorable turn was the second turn. On the second turn I rolled 11 with the winds. Chalice took 3 from him and 1 from me. So he ended up with 3 dice vs my 10.
I used my lvl 4 for a nice little purple sun through 4 big slave blocks. Getting back my 6 dice I used to cast it with (note that I killed well over 40 models (yes a whole whopping 80pts died) )

Then I targeted 2 units of storm vermins with medium fire balls (to get the +3) and used the other 3 to create big balls of fire. I honestly don’t remember how many vermin died but it it was a very nice sight.

In the end though I still lost because I still couldn’t kill them fast enough. I litteraly killed hundreds of them and they still kept comming.  

This list can create some really backbreaking magic phases and the 3 deathshriekers are really nice vs skaven.

I didn’t want to rely on a single very expensive dwarf block without a BSB. And taking a BSB would mean taking 1 less wizard. So for this fight I took a pure hobbo list. They stayed in the bauble for most of the game (18inch bauble ftw:D) So they got to test on ld 10 most of the time.

For my next list I’m going to drop 1 mage and the shriekers in favor of some BC’s. I’m going to test if 2 units of bc’s are better then 3 shriekers. The reasoning is very simple. Shriekers kill lots of skaven but they need to kill more then 25 just to get their points back. I want to see if some bull centaurs with higher speed and a possible flank charge can break those massive blocks.

Da Crusha:

neat idea but I think the chalice works fine on its own. I used the chalice in RH for offense to lower my opponents dispel dice but since it it is much more random now with LoA I find it much more effective to just use for magic defense. I could use all my dispel dice and then activate the chalice to get rid of most of his left over dice. it worked pretty effectively at shutting down his magic.

although… I know you are trying to use the chalice offensively. I would make one of the low level sorcerers your main caster and give him the charmed shield to use for his first miscast.

Something I forgot to add, at the end of turn 5 I had lost 3 smiths to miscasts and 1 to the forbidden rod. That’s 400 pts of suicides and I’m not yet sure if it was worth that in the end.

maded12
the other problem is the “sorcerer’s curse” special rule which pretty much makes chaos dwarfs poor sorcerers, even worse for low level sorcerers.

Samanos:

i dont find the curse that big of an issue for a prophet (he is the only one that rolls enough dice to cause a mistcast in my games), he is t5 so he is good in most cases

deadlydeceiver:

The chalice again… I still do not understand why people say it’s soooo powerful? (it’s even banned at ETC)

You can cripple your own phase as easily as you opponents. I can already see myself rolling 3s for me and 1s for my enemy all the time… and his face :mad

I could use all my dispel dice and then activate the chalice to get rid of most of his left over dice.

Da Crusha
How sure are we that this is legal? Most people in other threads think it has to be used at the beginning. Like all PD/DD-affecting items (f.ex. Banner of Sorcery)

Please enlighten me :hat off

DD

Da Crusha:

I could use all my dispel dice and then activate the chalice to get rid of most of his left over dice.

Da Crusha
How sure are we that this is legal? Most people in other threads think it has to be used at the beginning. Like all PD/DD-affecting items (f.ex. Banner of Sorcery)

Please enlighten me :hat off

DD


deadlydeceiver
well, it doesn't say it has to be used at the beginning of the magic phase. it may be unique in this way but that doesn't make it illegal. also I was just talking about this strategy with a friend of mine today, he is among the best players in the country and a member of Leadership 2, a very dedicated warhammer group that competes all over the world. he didn't give me any reason to think it wasn't a legal strategy. Im gonna check with those guys. I was hanging out with them this afternoon.

Im not familiar with the banner of sorcery.

nilbog:

Banner of sorcery is a high elf item that adds D3 power dice to the pool. IIRC it doesn’t say in the high elf book when those extra dice are added - which means that if you roll 12 for your power dice, you could use some up and then top up with the extra dice from the banner.

However, I think it’s been ruled now to add them at the start of the magic phase.

Da Crusha:

Ive just looked up banner of sorcery. the timing with that item has been FAQ’d:

Q: If I have a special rule that generates power or dispel dice
that doesn�?Tt state when they are added or specifies they are added at
the start of the Magic phase, when are these dice added to the
pool?(p30)
A: They are added after rolling for the Winds of Magic but
before any casting attempts have been made.
the chalice is different though. It does not generate power dice or dispel dice but instead takes them away. As it stands, I would not have a problem using it the way I have, the item would be very limited in its uses if it had to used at the beginning… never used on defense, unless they roll really low… only used on offense if the roll was high enough, or a double 3 or higher was rolled… actually reminds me of how I used the RH one but much more risky.

MLP:

Nice thread maded12! I love the use of unusual lists and this is exceptionally unusual! I bet the batlle smelt of burning rat! I can imagine the list working against certain army builds but then being really ineffective against others. I think another magic based list like high elves or lizardmen could counter your magic even with chalice.

That’s also a lot of hobgoblins! Were they competitive enough against what rats made it to you?

Da Crusha:

while I wait for one of the judges of Quake City Rumble to get back to me. I was wondering what other people thought about the timing of the Chalice of blood and darkness.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

TIming as in “when it gets used?”? At any point during the magic phase. Otherwise I just don’t see it being worth 50 points…

MLP:

Yeah I agree. There is nothing in the rule that tells you when you have to use it.

Bitterman:

I disagree. It’s way too good for 50 points if you can use it at any time, but more to the point, see the previous FAQ… while it doesn’t “generate” power or dispel dice, it’s clearly conceptually the same thing in that it affects how many power and dispel dice are available.

Granted, that’s RAI not RAW, but RAW it just doesn’t say. I guess if you’re in a hardcore tournament environment you can use that to justify doing whatever you like, but let’s put it this way… it also doesn’t say you may only use it once in a magic phase, it just says “In any Magic phase…”. But I assume nobody is using it multiple times in a phase? “You lose 3 power dice. You lose 2 power dice. You lose 3 power dice. You lose 1 power dice. Oh look you have no power dice left! Magic phase over” - every single turn. That would clearly be absurd - so the “it doesn’t say you can’t” defence is meaningless. Since “it doesn’t say you can’t” is the only justification for using the Chalice at any time other than at the start of the phase, it seems pretty clear to me that it has to be used at the start.

MLP:

I’d say it’s not clear when to use it going by this thread of people with different interpretations!

I also wouldn’t say it’s too good for 50 points, there’s just as much chance of messing up your own phase as the enemy’s whenever it is used.

Marduk:

I'd say it's not clear when to use it going by this thread of people with different interpretations!

I also wouldn't say it's too good for 50 points, there's just as much chance of messing up your own phase as the enemy's whenever it is used.

MLP
And also remember that it could make you suffer a wound on a double "1". This possibility is not completely balanced by the chance of recovering a wound on a double "6" since the character might have no wounds to recover.

khedyarl:

I’m not saying that the “use at any point” interpretation is invalid, but I’d be fairly suprised if (given another FAQ from FW) if it turns out to be the correct one. At fifty points, the item seems to be much like the flask - a flashy, interesting item that is ultimately useful only in certain situations.

Until it is FAQ’d, however, kind of looks like its a slipup on FW’s part, and that you can, in fact, use the item at any time. RAW perhaps, but there’s nothing written in the game saying otherwise, and no real precedent.

Bitterman:

And also remember that it could make you suffer a wound on a double "1".

Marduk
Once every three games, on average, if you use it every single phase of every single 6-turn game. I wouldn't worry too much about that, I doubt it's factored into the cost at all.

As for when, well, I won't repeat myself in detail, suffice to say that RAW may not be 100% clear because it "doesn't say"... but RAI is surely clear if you consider that it "doesn't say" how often in any phase you can use it, either. I would agree that it needs a FAQ to clarify once and for all, though.

Da Crusha:

So I asked the Head judges of Quake City Rumble, a 100+ person Tournament, they ruled, at their tournament it will be used at the beginning of the phase.

It definitely seems like the intention is for it to trigger at the start of the magic phase before casting attempts, just like other items that alter the number of dice in the pool. Considering the new CD rules weren’t written by GW proper (not that GW itself isn’t totally capable of incomplete and unclear rules) we feel caution is best. Barring an FAQ that says otherwise, that’s how it’ll be played at QCR. Still quite useful at preventing the big ticket enemy spells from going off (it’s really for your opponent to cast Dreaded 13th with only 4-5 power dice, no matter how few dispel dice you have left, for example) but the intention does seem to be that it drain both power and dispel dice, and waiting until after all one’s dispel dice are gone feels contrary to that intention.

maded12:

Wow, it seems this little trinket is the cause for many interpertations and rulings. I personally always play it at the start of the magic phase. Can I ask everybody to please keep the discussion about the rules/rulings of the chalice in another thread. I just wanted to make an army list focussed on the magic fase and the chalice.

Da crusha: You are right about the curse. But I’ve never seen that as a really big problem. So they lose a life and gain a thoughness. It only happens once and my smith’s aren’t any good in combat any way. In some ways I actually like them better with -1w and +1T

MLP: About the gobbo’s. They are better then the same amount of dwarfs vs skaven. (note that I am not saying that they are better in general)

Most of their good things will kill dwarfs (almost) just as fast as goblins. And the last time I played vs those bloody rats I had 1 solid block of infantery and 1 support block. He deployed 5 big slave blocks and 2 storm vermin blocks. I felt a little bit outnumbberd and outmanouverd when my big block got ***** because of the dreaded 13 and all of his shooting. This time I brought 4 big blocks just to soak up the damage. They did alright vs the slaves and the few storm vermin who made it across. But if more of his storm vermin had made it acros I think it would have been, a challenge.

My big question is if there are people who have tried running a magic foccused list like this and if so if they have had some succes with it.