Nicodemus:
Week 2: Hobgoblin Cutthroats
Welcome to the second chapter in the Daemonsmith’s Handbook! Please post your Hobgoblin Cutthroat tips and tactics here.
Some suggested topics for discussion:
- How to equip your units
- Ideal unit size and number of units
- Which characters/items work best with Hobgoblin Cutthroats
propervillanz:
I like to take one to two units of 20 with the following make:
20 Hobgoblin Cutthroats
Standard & Musician
Sheilds
Bows
I like to set them up in horde formation early in the game and have them creep up and generally shoot at the same target. I have found that 40 shots can typically take out a lone character or even a war machine in a turn (if your dice favor you).
In this formation they also provide excellent hard cover for your more important units (Infernal Guard/Ironsworn, K’daii Fireborn, certain war machines). Utilizing the slow and steady advance will allow you to control a good amount of the field via firing arcs as well.
As the game progresses and enemy units close in i like to reform them into a 5x5 unit and if all works out they will hold long enough for my Infernal Guard and/or K’daii to get into a flank and cause some real hurt.
I also find this build to be a great disposable re-director. I sometimes place a unit where it will receive multiple charges that are too good to pass up. A stand and shoot and flee reaction later and i tend to end up getting beautiful firing arcs and counter charge possibilities with my remaining forces.
MLP:
I love Hobgoblins.
A unit of 29/39 in horde with full command and additional hand weapons(bows and shields is a good defensive option instead if you like). Then a Khan on foot to lead them equipped with the terrifying mask of eee!
Tactics are to keep them next to your infernal guard unit with general and bsb. You now have a unit with a lot of attacks, causing terror, and Ld10 rerollable. The terror aspect can really help when you catch an enemy block off guard and they fail a Ld test to run away, and if they don’t flee they still may fail their Fear test and be on Ld1. Then you’re hitting them on 3+ while they only hit on a 5+!
I have had great success with this build.
Bolg:
If they are armed with a bow: Keep them out of 6" from chaos dwarves but within 12" of your general. So they will suffer animosity but can use the LD 10 for the panic test, if the roll a 6 (for animosity) they get a +1 to hit (even with the bow).
Groznit Goregut:
These guys have the exact stats as a human, with the exception of Ld 6 instead of 7, but are a lot cheaper than State Troopers. With such expensive Chaos Dwarfs, these guys bulk out our battle line. Keep them near the Ld bubble and they can be Steadfast for a quite a while. I’ve been going with two large units of Hobgoblins and just a single unit of actual Chaos Dwarfs.
The Throwing Knives is a great weapon! I think I’ve killed more with the knives than I have bows…
I play with more war machines and defensive, so go with shields and bows on units of 40. I go Horde to make the battle line wider, but will pull them in to be Steadfast when it comes time for combat. With the shield, they can last a bit longer in combat and the bows add some support for the gunline. I will agree that BS 3 doesn’t hit a lot, but it’s great to mop up a bit after the war machines fire. It may not do a lot of damage, but you can help whittle things down.
I’ve really wanted to go with two hand weapons and use a Horde. That would be quite a lot of attacks! If you can get the Hatred spell off on them, that’s even more. They are only WS 3 and S 3, but if you throw a lot of dice, things will get through. Some people might be surprised at how effective Hobgoblins and might charge a weakened unit (from magic and shooting) into them…only to run away!
Even without the special Hobgoblin flanking rule, a unit of 20 in the flank of almost anything is good, even Chaos Warriors. Only one rank gets to attack back and they usually don’t give up enough CR to make it a bad thing. They get to fight in 2 ranks in the flank. They add in ranks, banner, and flank, plus any hits they do. I’ve broken Chaos Warriors just due to reducing their CR and removing their Steadfast.
In an army where everything else is expensive, these guys are dirt cheap for what you get. Are they as good as a Chaos Dwarf? No, but they cost about 1/3 of the price! Bulk up with these guys and you will be alright.
MLP:
These guys have the exact stats as a human, with the exception of Ld 6 instead of 7, but are a lot cheaper than State Troopers.They only have initiative 2 as well. But I think their backstabber rule makes up for it, and like you say throwing knives are great!
Groznit Goregut
thrawn:
i have mixed feelings about hobgoblins.
yes in an expensive army they are cheap, and so are a tempting option. however, in smaller games i don’t find them worth while.
here is my logic. if you wanna win, minimise core selection and maximise special and rare. this is especially the case with chaos dwarfs as our special and rare are exceptionally good! with that in mind, in a 2000 point game you should only be taking maximum 525 points of core (i try to take below 505 points). with only having 500 points to spend on core, and chaos dwarfs being as expensive as they are, you don’t have the points to put hobgoblins in! for 500 points i’d much rather have a block of blunderbusses or a large horde with HW&S then hobgoblins. this is especially the case cause you can’t put chaos dwarfs with hobgoblins. i would be tempted to take a massive horde of hobgoblins, but then your chaos dwarf characters have nowhere to hide!
however, in larger games where you have the points to spend, then yes hobgoblins are almost essential as you need some warm bodies for the inevitable meat grinder.
Blackspine:
Even as a Warriors of Chaos player, I hope these guys get adjusted. They're too cheap as is and most players rely on the 'khorne-horde' crutch. Really, the fact that they're skaven cheap and great stats is crazy.These guys have the exact stats as a human, with the exception of Ld 6 instead of 7, but are a lot cheaper than State Troopers.They only have initiative 2 as well. But I think their backstabber rule makes up for it, and like you say throwing knives are great!
Groznit Goregut
Only thing that bugs me is they're the same points as a naked Chaos marauder but they get +1 Ws, +2 I, +1 Ld along with the will of chaos rule! Hopefully that will even out when the new WoC book comes out.
MLP
Groznit Goregut:
here is my logic. if you wanna win, minimise core selection and maximise special and rare. this is especially the case with chaos dwarfs as our special and rare are exceptionally good! with that in mind, in a 2000 point game you should only be taking maximum 525 points of core (i try to take below 505 points). with only having 500 points to spend on core, and chaos dwarfs being as expensive as they are, you don't have the points to put hobgoblins in!I just did a 2000 pt list and had 23 Chaos Dwarfs (with 2 characters), a block of 40 Hobgoblins with shield and bow, and then 20 Hobgoblins with shield and bow. It worked great!
thrawn
Nurion:
I usualy play one unit of 20 hobgoblins with bows and musician. I place them near my warmachines to take out chaff and prevent them from getting charged.
I don’t have enough models to run them as a horde with 40 models, but i’d definitly try 39 with 2hw and a khan with mask. Sounds like fun!
gashnag:
I love my hobgoblins this past Monday a unit of 25 held up 2 units of 6 crypt horrors for 2 rounds of combat before braking. I know I’ve said this before on a another post but hobgoblins when taken in 25-30 strong with shields can hold their own against the odds sometimes. I’m happy with the 100 hobgoblins with bows and shield and the 30 armed with shield I have for my army and I’m planning on adding another 70 w/shields.
moogoodoo:
I love Hobgoblins.thats exactly what i do works well :cheers
A unit of 29/39 in horde with full command and additional hand weapons(bows and shields is a good defensive option instead if you like). Then a Khan on foot to lead them equipped with the terrifying mask of eee!
Tactics are to keep them next to your infernal guard unit with general and bsb. You now have a unit with a lot of attacks, causing terror, and Ld10 rerollable. The terror aspect can really help when you catch an enemy block off guard and they fail a Ld test to run away, and if they don't flee they still may fail their Fear test and be on Ld1. Then you're hitting them on 3+ while they only hit on a 5+!
I have had great success with this build.
MLP
Hashup:
I’m a fan of using one block of Hobgoblins to bog down some of my opponents nastier units, with the exception of large infantry units that have a lot of attacks such as Saurus Warriors. They will tie up most monsters for several turns, as well as most non-elite infantry squads. When deployed they typically help my hellcannon or an infernal guard unit equipped with hand weapons and shields hold a flank and have done a great job at doing so thus far.
I run a unit of 30-35 typically in ranks of 5 with just a musician and no weapon/armour upgrades because, as everyone has mentioned, they’re very sturdy when in your generals leadership bubble and I like to keep them as cheap as possible. I have yet to roll a 6 on my animosity tests in roughly 10 games so I can’t speak for their true offensive potential (although my unit has killed an exalted chariot of slaanesh!), but defensively not much in the game will beat them as a tar pit. Cheap and completely expendable (and balanced!), I love em!
RichardC1967:
are shields a necessity with the bow armed hobgobs?..I see them as a waste of points on the bowmen…maybe its just me…
Hashup:
I don’t really see the point of shields on hobgoblins of any sort. Sure maybe 6-10 wounds will be saved over the course of a game when on a large squad, but that’s still around 15 points spent to save 30 very non-essential points or so per game. I like to keep my fodder cheap, and if needed add more bodies instead of upgrades. Shields take effort to make, hobgoblins don’t:D
MLP:
are shields a necessity with the bow armed hobgobs?..I see them as a waste of points on the bowmen..maybe its just me..Makes them a little bit duel role. You get a few rounds of bowfire then when they enemy reach your line you have 5+ 6++ instead of just 6+. Also, if you play lore of metal and get the glittering scales(I think it's called) they can be 3+ 6++ which is as good as your Infernal guard!
RichardC1967
nilbog:
I prefer unit sizes of 20, rather than 40. Here’s why:
Chaff: I don’t want one big unit of 40 shooting at one small unit of chaff. Two units gives me the option of concentrating or splitting fire.
Blood and glory: two units gives me more standards.
Watchtower: my infernal guard units are 30 in size, so they don’t fit. Granted, the hobbos aren’t likely to stay there, but still…
Always keep the hobbos between 6" and 12" from your general/bsb so they suffer animosity (+1 to hit, including shooting, no effect or take a panic check on a rerollable leadership 10).
I’ve never used shields, but might give them a try.
Grimbold Blackhammer:
I’ve used a 35-40 model bus of Hobgoblins in almost all my games. I’ve found bows to be a waste of points in the majority of my games though the odd time they’ve helped me kill some nice, expensive elves. Where I find they excel is an enemy needs to commit a serious amount of power to kill them. But more often my opponent will throw his big stuff into my dwarves leaving me free to flank with my Hobgoblins. And because they are so durable, even if it takes an extra turn to get the hobbos into position, it usually isn’t a problem. Of course if my enemy does put sufficient force into the unit as to actually break it, it is pinned in place for at least a few turns which I’m often completely fine with. They’re an excellent throw-away unit for my purposes and occasionally they actually perform which is just an added bonus.
Grimbold Blackhammer
Nicodemus:
I don’t think I have anything new to add when considering what has alraedy been said about the latest incarnation of Hobgoblins with the LoA list, but I can add some support to what’s been said in case anyone is on the fence about them.
Hobgoblins count toward Core (unlike those of us who may still have Ravening Hordes stuck in our heads) and it’s nice that we have a relatively cheap option in an otherwise high-points-cost army.
Hobgoblins equipped with bows will be able to fire 24", as opposed to the Fireglaives 18" or the Blunderbusses 12". The Hobgoblins w/ bows are not terribly effective, so buffing them, or debuffing what they are firing at, using magic really helps. I’ve had fantastic luck with two units of 20-30 Hobgoblins with Bows laying down some support for other units and also as blockers.
For 80 points you can put 20 Hobgoblins without any extra stuff on the table - first, expect they are going to die and move on. Once you’ve accepted that, if your 80+ points can hold up a high points-cost enemy unit for a turn or two (maybe even while you setup a flank charge) then those may be points well spent! If you use them as meatshields for your warmachines then it’s an ~80+ point investment in warmachine protection, which could help stave off enemy charges for most of the game!
Again, nothing new to what I’ve said, but I whole heartedly agree with the positives that have been said about them so far.
One last thought, in low point games (i.e. 500-1000 ~ish) a unit or two of Hobgoblins is very important. Because everything in the army list is so expensive, you’re going to have very few units on the table compared to many other armies (Empire, Skaven!!, etc). Some Hobgoblins, which, again, count toward Core, will help spread the army out a little. In higher point games I’ve had I’ve earned some fantastic victories without Hobgoblins and not even missed the little green backstabbers!
Oh, and cheers Bolg:
If they are armed with a bow: Keep them out of 6" from chaos dwarves but within 12" of your general. So they will suffer animosity but can use the LD 10 for the panic test, if the roll a 6 (for animosity) they get a +1 to hit (even with the bow).Bloody brilliant… totally missed that synergy, but it’ll be at the forefront of my mind now!!
Bolg