[Archive] The Daemonsmith's Handbook - Iron Daemon and Skullcracker

cornixt:

This is the wrong place to debate rules interpretations anyway (same for all Handbook threads), make a new thread for it or ressurrect an older thread that discusses it.

Marduk:

I use the Iron Daemon in nearly every one of my lists.  Why ? Well it looks awesome for one!  But also because it adds some strategic options. Typically I deploy it in the middle to cut my opponents forces in half and deal with their army on one side at a time.  The Extra wound and T with Hell bound are really nice to fill this blocker role and take some hits (there are a lot of S6 hits out there...) .  Also the Cannonde has wracked up a lot of kills for me.  

I wish the skull crusher option was useful as I would love to field it. But it is in many ways a reduction in the capcacity of the iron demon, adding insult to injurty for its higher cost.   Particularly in a tournament setting its going to be a a big paper weight when you run into ogres or cav heavy armies.

Ender SpiteSworn
I totally agree. The awesomeness factor combined with the strategic options make it worth having in the list. This is a mobile shooting warmachine!

In my experience the cannonade is not as destructive as I would like it to be but it's scary and works nicely as deterrent for fast moving units seeking to outflank us. Even though I roll to hit with BS3, in the opponents' minds it still is a moving organ gun.

Vardan Painkiller:

isnt handbook best place to discull rules regarding those units?

And the algorythm is very precise

finish charges

declare boiler use

pivot - only when u charge u cant, so dont decalre charge

move in a straight line

end

Ender SpiteSworn:

I think another thing i have found when using the iron Daemon is that they need a “Get outa Jail” buddy unit to stay close. Opposing players can easily lock down the iron demon with Fast Cav, spirit host, Solitary mounted heroes, and things like eagles. Since you can’t stomp these things they are tying up your big point unit with something small.

So you need something to counter charge enemy units locking you down. I like to use hobgoblin Khans on a wholf with a dinky magic sword. this takes care of most chaff and those annoying etherials. You can also keep him close to an archer block (defensive) or advancing witht firborn/Bull centaurs (offensive). A lot of opponents wont have something to annoy you so its important to make your Iron Daemn “buddy” something that is not a purly dedicated baby sitter, and can perform other functions (like stepping on Manglar Squigs :slight_smile: ).

Gmaleron:

Actually you CAN pivot before activating the boilers, because if you read the rule for Lone Models and movement found on pg. 27 (note will not write the whole thing just what matters to the debate):

Lone Models and Movement: pg. #27 in the Rulebook

-"Units that consist of a single model, such as Monsters, Chariots (so this counts for the Iron Demon and Skullcracker as it says in their profile to be treated as a chariot).

-The one exception is that a single model can pivot on the spot as many times as it wishes over the course of its move.

-A lone model must follow the normal Charge rules which do not allow pivots only one wheel whilst its moving and another to “close the door”.

So taking all this into account during its normal movement (not charging) you can choose to pivot then activate the boilers and then move forward in a straight line (because it does not say you have to activate the boilers before anything, it only references when “charging or marching”).

This also helps us take advantage of the “unintentional charge” rule and allows us to get into combat without declaring a charge giving us some more mobility. It is not “cheating” when it is written into the rules and clearly okay for us to do, in fact it helps us out with it being so limited on movement.

Back to tactics I have had some success running x2 of these guys next to one another and putting them towards the same target. Not only can they support each other with Cannon fire but have x2 of these guys going into one enemy unit really helps even the odds. And the fact they are basically mobile Organ Guns doesn’t hurt either. :cheers

Malorndk:

It is not "cheating" when it is written into the rules and clearly okay for us to do, in fact it helps us out with it being so limited on movement.

Gmaleron
It's always an argument about clarity when it comes to understanding the rules. I'm not saying you are right or wrong. I will always play the Iron Daemon with the weakest interpretation of its rules, as they are soooo badly designed that we can't even guess the exact intentions from it's creators...

Bloodbeard:

That sure is a completely new way to look at that machine. But I disagree, I really don’t think that’s the way to do it Gmaleron.

The Iron Demon is a chariot and cannot march. And the rules for it state “it may move normally up to it’s movement distance…”, so during this time all the above is correct. But the next sentence read “alternatively, it may choose to engage it’s steam boilers…”. Last I checked “alternatively”, means a different choice. And that choice is to something other than movement, ergo the normal rules for single models don’t apply, and you play by the ones in the book.

If you choose to do an alternative unique thing in the movement phase, you’re not allowed to first do something regular. Not seeing the word alternative as “one or the other”, I don’t agree with that reading of the rules.

Gmaleron:

I am just saying how I interpret it based on what it says in the book and in the Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook and to me since it is a chariot and therefore classified as a lone model it can pivot before making the boiler move.

Again I only say this because it says that you do not have to activate the boiler at the beginning of the movement phase and since a Lone Model can pivot at any point during the movement phase it seems clear to me that you could. The “alternatively” part of sentence to me means you can choose to do that instead of the normal 6 inch move, which if you are using the Iron Demon means you could no fire the Steam Cannonade.

I’m actually going to contact Forgeworld directly via phone as they have answered rule questions before and see if I can get an email from them as well to try and clear up the issue.

Jasko:

That sure is a completely new way to look at that machine. But I disagree, I really don't think that's the way to do it Gmaleron.

The Iron Demon is a chariot and cannot march. And the rules for it state "it may move normally up to it's movement distance...", so during this time all the above is correct. But the next sentence read "alternatively, it may choose to engage it's steam boilers...". Last I checked "alternatively", means a different choice. And that choice is to something other than movement, ergo the normal rules for single models don't apply, and you play by the ones in the book.

If you choose to do an alternative unique thing in the movement phase, you're not allowed to first do something regular. Not seeing the word alternative as "one or the other", I don't agree with that reading of the rules.

Bloodbeard
That's how it is done. Either you move normally, meaning 6" like a chariot and single model, so as many pivots as you want, a wheel, even sideways or backwards. Or you engage the steam boiler, which replaces charge and march. And of course this is done before you move. You don't declare a march after you have already moved. Think of it like this: You have to take a LD test if you want to march when you are 8" around an enemy. Say you are within 8", but barely, and by pivoting you leave the 8". Then you also cannot first pivot and then march. It's the same with the ID. If you engange the boiler to charge/march, there is no maneuver whatsoever. 6+2D6" straight ahead.

Also, hellbound also affects the cannonade, not sure if this was clarified here.

Jasko:

Ah, one more thing, we are all in agreement that Carriage Hauler is a fun idea and might be interesting for a special scenario, but in a regular game is pretty much useless, right? I mean all the warmachines have ample range and you lose at least one round of shooting when hauling them around the battlefield.

Admiral:


Ah, one more thing, we are all in agreement that Carriage Hauler is a fun idea and might be interesting for a special scenario, but in a regular game is pretty much useless, right? I mean all the warmachines have ample range and you lose at least one round of shooting when hauling them around the battlefield.


Jasko
Yes, without a doubt! Great fun feature, but useless in standard games. :hat off

Jasko:

Yes, without a doubt! Great fun feature, but useless in standard games. :hat off

Admiral
Thanks, just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking some hidden advantage :D