[Archive] The view from the other side of the pond

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I was curious how some of the other races viewed Chaos Dwarves now that we have an 8th edition army book so I went browsing some of the various race-specific forums.  As a Chaos Dwarf player, I consider us to be a fairly solid army with some good units and more not-so-good units than good units but still a solid play-style that lands us pretty firmly as a tier 2 army.  One poster described us very much as a rock-paper-scissors army meaning we’re terrific versus some enemies but just horrible versus some others (I thought this was quite accurate).  Overall folks seem to believe we are all high armour save, high toughness, amazing magic, and really tough to get victory points out of kind of an army.  What did surprise me, and I take this with a grain of salt because this is the Internet, is how many people cry “CHEEZE” and “BROKEN!!” about us.

Here’s a quick breakdown…
Infernal Guard - everyone calls them “as good as Iron Breakers core” or “mini Chaos Warriors”.

Hobgoblins - they’re better than normal goblins.  But they’re still garbage.  People generally do not expect them to be fielded.

Bull Centaurs - for some reason that baffles me, people are terrified of this unit.  I expect they are used to Mournfang, Skullcrushers, and Demigryphs so assume centaurs are just as bad or worse.  Yeah…we wish…

K’daii Fireborn - folks think they’re hard to kill and really dangerous.  But know they tend to blow themselves out so accept them.

Infernal Ironsworn - everyone expects these to be on the table though I’ve never fielded them nor have I ever seen or read a bat rep with them being used.  They get compared to Chosen.  Wow.  Chosen, really?!

Iron Daemon - the world is just as confused about the rules for this thing as we are.  But the obvious comparisons to the old Steam Tank are out there.  People think it is vastly undercosted and fielding two would be in VERY poor taste!

Magma Cannon - the only thing hated more than the K’daii Destroyer is this!  Apparently it wrecks entire units and makes no place safe on the battlefield.  I must be buying the crappy ones that kill enemy troops in small handfuls because mine don’t do that.

Deathshrieker Rocket - anyone who fields monsters thinks it’s amazing but most others just think it’s a bit meh.

Siege Giant - it gets laughed at just like normal giants

Dreadquake Mortar - another “broken” toy in our list because someone started a rumor that it can have 8 wounds.  And of course it’s damage output is horrific blah blah blah

Hellcannon - this is universally thought of as a “cheap” purchase for us.  Though I have no idea why since we pay exactly the same as its parent army does…

K’daii Destroyer - universally loathed and hands down the most feared thing in the army.  Most comments were along the lines of “can single-handedly destroy your entire army” and “immune to Warhammer”.  This is your enemy’s number one target hands down and they will throw either a hero with the Dragonhelm at it or else everything they’ve got.

Ashstorm is apparently the “best spell in the game”.  Funny, I always thought that was Pandamonium or any spell from the Lore of Life.  Hmm!

Flames of Azgorth - everyone seems to be under the impression that everyone touched by the template takes a ST5 D6 wound hit AND a characteristic test at -2.  So of course it’s BROKEN!!!

Black Hammer of Hashut - people fear it and its synergy with Ashstorm.  Everyone expects this to be on the table somewhere just waiting to strike!

Chalice of Blood and Darkness - “makes the pendant of Khaleth look good” and “should be a Lord choice only” kinds of comments were EVERYWHERE.  Apparently there are a bunch of J@ck@$$e$ out there who cast a spell and then use it before the opponent can throw their dispel dice?!  I guess a person could interpret the rules that way but talk about a way to never play a person twice.  Wow!  If anyone who does that reads this - STOP IT!  You’re making us look terrible.  I’ve never played anyone who needed to win that badly.  God help me if I ever do…  I really can’t say enough about how bad it is to actually try and pull a stunt like that.  Just wow.

So in summary, the general tactic is to smash our war machines first and then tackle the rest of the army.  Ogres and Wood Elves (ok, all elves since they all hate templates) are terrified of us.  Brettonians can’t break us on the charge but do have Heroic Killing Blow so are more of in the middle along with Vampire Counts who think we’re just a bad match up for them.  And Skaven, Empire, Tomb Kings, and whatnot haven’t seemed to have formed much of an opinion about us yet.  Dwarves players are, as they should be, jealous of us. It seems we may have an image problem and are definitely misunderstood but for the most part, most folks do not like playing against us.  :hashut

fattdex:

Chalice - i would only ever play it that way otherwise why spend fifty points? If it can be used at any time in the magic phase as it was faq’d there is no point in using it at any time but the most opportune.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I suppose every area has someone who has to be that guy.  I thought someone was making stuff up…  It’s no wonder the chalice/chaos dwarves are so unliked.

fattdex:

Tell me more about how to use your army in a soft fashion because you are embarrassed by it? Its a thing that does a thing, so i dont know why people complain about it when it does that thing. Its like saying you’ll drive on the sidewalk incase there is a chance anybody was offended by your driving.

Q. Can I use the Chalice of Blood and Darkness�?Ts ability at any point in the

Magic phase?

A. Yes �?" at any point in the Magic phase of either player�?Ts turn.

Forgeworld

Baggronor:

along with Vampire Counts who think we're just a bad match up for them.
Wha?! VCs are the worst match up for LoA.

Ethereals stop the Destroyer, Ghouls can kill it with poison and re-rolls, and screams and Deathshrieks will also make short work of it.

Invocation regrows much of the damage the war machines can do, and anyone with an ounce of sense simply reforms into 2 ranks at the sight of Magma Cannons anyway.

LoA has no answer for the Red Fury Vampire Lord. Now there is a model that will single-handedly wreck your army ;)

I'm dropping my Destroyer as he just does nothing these days. Far too easy to counter with mounted Dragonhelm heroes.

As for the chalice, the fault lies with FW. Write better rules!

ViLe:

well guys, for me it is the same old story…
I already had a CD army some years ago but i sold them, because they were banned on most of the tournaments and everybody was complaining about them. (even with the chronicles army list)
Now i am back in business with the LOA but as i said, here in germany, the same old story as with nearly every new army book.
Even people here play with ridiculous restrictions they always have something to complain, eh to cry about.
And guess what? Its a real pain in the ass to me…
when the new Dark Elf book came out every non Dark Elf player was complaining about the hydra. Later on the Skaven HBA took place for the hydra. And now its the Destroyer…
My usual tournament and gaming experience is that people are glad to see Chaos Dwarfs loosing. Its normal for me to hear something like “if you play such a lame army then bad luck things have to happen to you”. There are “lamer” shoutings when CD players get their prizes and so on.
Nearly the same as you would play demons. Because of that stupid “overpowered-hysterics-bla” and the ever increasing restriction system demons are nearly gone from torunament invironment. Even mine get dusty because it is not fun to play them anymore.
I am always a little bit jealous when i watch battle reports from other countries on youtube, because the tournaments seem to be a lot more “open” in terms of restriction and stuff. And most of the players seem not to have brainlag like they have here. Everything what happens out of melee combat is imba, overpowered or just lame to them. Thats cloying to me.
Just mention or ask a player about storm of magic you will get some deprecative answers. If some players had to decide, magic and shooting with something else than bows would be forbidden.

so my conclusion:
you wont get much acceptation if playing on magic or shooting.
you will be hated for playing Chaos Dwarfs or Demons.
and sometimes you will be hated for playing Skaven as well.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I don’t disagree with you, Brag. But VCs seem to believe with all the templates we can lay down, we are one of the few races that can really thin out their army making their game an auto-loss by the time they’ve crossed the table. It’s funny how players perceptions change depending on what army they’re looking at the world from. Ogres seem to universally believe we are their worst match up and yet I believe with their Iron Blasters being able to destroy our war machines on turn 1, our greatest strength is useless and I strongly dislike playing them because they crush dwarves pretty easily. It’s just perspective and, judging from a lot of the comments I saw out there, a great deal of misunderstandings.

Baggronor:

But VCs seem to believe with all the templates we can lay down, we are one of the few races that can really thin out their army making their game an auto-loss by the time they've crossed the table. It's funny how players perceptions change depending on what army they're looking at the world from. Ogres seem to universally believe we are their worst match up and yet I believe with their Iron Blasters being able to destroy our war machines on turn 1, our greatest strength is useless and I strongly dislike playing them because they crush dwarves pretty easily. It's just perspective and, judging from a lot of the comments I saw out there, a great deal of misunderstandings.
I think your local VC players need to do their homework a little more ;) As VCs, you shouldn't be losing to gunlines.

LoA is powerful vs Ogres if you have Magma Cannons and IDs. D3 wounds really hurts them. I don't think Ogres have any really bad match ups though, they are sooooo good.
My usual tournament and gaming experience is that people are glad to see Chaos Dwarfs loosing. Its normal for me to hear something like "if you play such a lame army then bad luck things have to happen to you". There are "lamer" shoutings when CD players get their prizes and so on.
Germany sounds like an awful place to play Warhammer :( Just out of interest, what do these master tacticians think is a fair and balanced army? (If you say they think Bretonnians or Wood Elves are lovely and fair I am going to fall off my chair laughing btw ;))

ViLe:

Germany sounds like an awful place to play Warhammer Sad Just out of interest, what do these master tacticians think is a fair and balanced army? (If you say they think Bretonnians or Wood Elves are lovely and fair I am going to fall off my chair laughing btw Wink)
they try to better balance the game. But imho you cant completely balance a game like whfb. They have passed the point of just balancing and have killed the game.

In my other thread i already mentioned the comp for Chaos Dwarfs:
in general its:
- never generate more than 12 power dice
- generate max two power dice beside the 2d6 roll
- max 4 power dice to use for one spell (no limit for dispel dice Sad )
- you cant get more than +4 on casting lore of metal, life, heavens, death, shadows and light
- if you use a model with loremaster than you cant use the lore with another model (horrors or bound items dont count)
- not more than 80 models which are able to shoot. Single shot bolt throwers count as 5 Archers and other war machines as 10.
- max 3 templates incl. breath weapons and cannons
- not more than 45 models per unit
- 9-11   P. max 40 per unit
- 12-14 P. max 35 per unit
- 15-18 P. max 30 per unit
- 19-29 P. max 20 per unit
- 30-39 P. max 12 per unit
- 40 P. and more max 9 per unit
- no choice more then 3 times
- no power scroll, crown of command or the flying fortress
- no special Chars or Champs
- you get look out sir against the big spells like the dreaded 13th and stuff

that are the restricitions in general... but there are also specific terms for each race..

for CD they are as followed:

- a CD army has a "pool" which you can take 4 choices from: Iron Demon, Bale Taurus, K´daai Destroyer (counts twice), first template with S5 or more, second template with S5 or more, Bull Centaur Hero
- Magmacannon, Hellcannon and Mortar count as 15 Archers, throwing knifes on Hobgoblins count as 0,25 and IG with Blunderbusses as 1,5
- no chalice of blood and darkness, not more than one Iron Demon, K´daai Destroyer or Hellcannon
here is the link to the full system:
http://www.tabletopwelt.de/forum/showthread.php?t=139025

there are specials for every army.
And this is a very common comp system for tournaments. I can still remember some glory days, when most of the tournaments were completely free.
But then the scarry stuff startet with the old VC army book i guess. By the time dragons and greater demons got forbidden. They started to give the armys this "pool choices" and set up different point values. The created different categorys with 2000, 2250 and 2500 points. With the new Edition the restrictions got redone and now its even worse i think.
atm wood elfs and tomb kings play with 2600 points, beastmen with 2700 points and some special goodies and the rest has to set up 2500 points.

GodHead:

Infernal Guard - everyone calls them "as good as Iron Breakers core" or "mini Chaos Warriors".
Less WS than Iron Breakers, definitely not Chaos Warriors.
Hobgoblins - they're better than normal goblins. But they're still garbage. People generally do not expect them to be fielded.
Those silly, silly people.
Bull Centaurs - for some reason that baffles me, people are terrified of this unit. I expect they are used to Mournfang, Skullcrushers, and Demigryphs so assume centaurs are just as bad or worse. Yeah...we wish...
They came out alright in the Bad Dice Monstrous Cav challenge (baddice.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/THE-GREAT-MONSTROUS-CAVALRY-TEST-OF-2012.pdf), and they weren't even equipped with GW...
K'daii Fireborn - folks think they're hard to kill and really dangerous. But know they tend to blow themselves out so accept them.
I've never seen anyone have a problem with Fireborn. Most reactions I've seen are "you took Fireborn? Weird."
Infernal Ironsworn - everyone expects these to be on the table though I've never fielded them nor have I ever seen or read a bat rep with them being used. They get compared to Chosen. Wow. Chosen, really?!
!17! points per model. Tell someone that if they ask why you are not using them.
Iron Daemon - the world is just as confused about the rules for this thing as we are. But the obvious comparisons to the old Steam Tank are out there. People think it is vastly undercosted and fielding two would be in VERY poor taste!
One is good, too is amazing. Expensive, but devastating unit.
Magma Cannon - the only thing hated more than the K'daii Destroyer is this! Apparently it wrecks entire units and makes no place safe on the battlefield. I must be buying the crappy ones that kill enemy troops in small handfuls because mine don't do that.
Far too effective against big blocks. Enemies can reform to avoid massive damage. It's the one war machine you can actually do something about on your own turn.
Deathshrieker Rocket - anyone who fields monsters thinks it's amazing but most others just think it's a bit meh.
100 points for a potential big template, and then a little template and a monster killer about as effective as a cannon? Lots of players think these are too cheap where I play.
Siege Giant - it gets laughed at just like normal giants
A slower, more expensive giant that falls down twice as often. If you take one you are a fool.
Dreadquake Mortar - another "broken" toy in our list because someone started a rumor that it can have 8 wounds. And of course it's damage output is horrific blah blah blah
7 wounds I think (depending on your interpretation of Hellbound). It does damage. It's also fiendishly expensive. Another unit that is met with raised eyebrows when I use one. Not because it's too good, but because it is too expensive for what it does.
Hellcannon - this is universally thought of as a "cheap" purchase for us. Though I have no idea why since we pay exactly the same as its parent army does...
S5/10 artillery that is also an unbreakable monster? The reason why it's too good for us is because we can use our engineers with it.
K'daii Destroyer - universally loathed and hands down the most feared thing in the army. Most comments were along the lines of "can single-handedly destroy your entire army" and "immune to Warhammer". This is your enemy's number one target hands down and they will throw either a hero with the Dragonhelm at it or else everything they've got.
Easily the most "all or nothing" unit in the entire game.
Ashstorm is apparently the "best spell in the game". Funny, I always thought that was Pandamonium or any spell from the Lore of Life. Hmm!
Ash Storm is better than Pandemonium, or any other spell in the game. That blender Vamp? NEVER GETS TO CHARGE. Your Slann? CAN'T CAST SPELLS. 1 spell that does everything. Removing charges is the biggest issue though.

Thommy H:



ViLe
Haha, why even play Warhammer with comp that strict? If the game needs to be modified that much to satisfy a group's idea of balance, just pick a different system. There are plenty out there. If you're playing Warhammer to enjoy a precise strategic challenge against a fellow tactician, you've erred catastrophically: it's supposed to be a bit wonky and daft.

Kera foehunter:

Dwarves players are, as they should be, jealous of us.

Sorry not at all !!

Do to the high price of this army i dough i ever come across a Chaos dwarf army in my region .

Beside mine !

Groznit Goregut:

Whenever I hear about people playing Warhammer in Europe, I cringe. The ETC comp sounds like 7.5th Ed. The South East US (where I live) started off with absolutely no comp at all. About half the events have comp, but they usually aren’t that bad. The Swedish Comp system is one that a lot of people are liking.

I have to ask, though, do we ALWAYS have to go with a gunline army? It doesn’t seem that thrilling in the first place. We now have options to take an aggressive list if we want to. I found under the Swedish Comp that it isn’t so bad if you don’t go with a gunline. Prophet on a flying beast, K’Daai, Bull Centaurs, and K’Daai Fireborn are good. Use Chaos Dwarfs and Hobgoblins as a center battle line that slowly advances (or holds vs aggressive) and use everything else on the flanks to swing the edges. You don’t take comp hits. You don’t get people bitching as much about how broken everything is.

As for the Chalice issue, I’m trying to ask my local guys. Method is a local guy and he doesn’t want to alienate people. I’ve played Orcs and Goblins all through 6th and 7th. I’ve seen the worst of the worst lists beat the living snot out of me in no comp events time and time again. Now that I’m playing a list that has some neat toys, I have to admit that I want to try them out! I don’t want to lose Sportsmanship points. I can see me doing the worst tricks on those opponents that are power play opponents only. Double Slaan? I’m using it on you…

I will say it will be interesting for my first GT with Chaos Dwarfs this weekend. I’ve done Orcs and Goblins for years and only lost Best Sports at the last GT when one guy dunked me (and everyone else he played). So…with a “broken” army, I wonder if it changes my score much?

Veshnakar:

I will flat out tell you that if you never want any complaints whatsoever, Just don’t take magma cannons, destroyers, or the lore of hashut. That’s what I do. Everything else in our list is average at best.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

My current list has zero war machines, my prophet uses the Lore of Death, and everything is charging forwards. People are afraid of my destroyer but so far everyone has loved my new playing style (and it totally catches them off guard!). Best of all it actually wins!

Method:

Whenever I hear about people playing Warhammer in Europe, I cringe.  The ETC comp sounds like 7.5th Ed.  The South East US (where I live) started off with absolutely no comp at all.  About half the events have comp, but they usually aren't that bad.  The Swedish Comp system is one that a lot of people are liking.  

I have to ask, though, do we ALWAYS have to go with a gunline army?  It doesn't seem that thrilling in the first place.  We now have options to take an aggressive list if we want to.  I found under the Swedish Comp that it isn't so bad if you don't go with a gunline.  Prophet on a flying beast, K'Daai, Bull Centaurs, and K'Daai Fireborn are good.  Use Chaos Dwarfs and Hobgoblins as a center battle line that slowly advances (or holds vs aggressive) and use everything else on the flanks to swing the edges.  You don't take comp hits.  You don't get people bitching as much about how broken everything is.  

As for the Chalice issue, I'm trying to ask my local guys.  Method is a local guy and he doesn't want to alienate people.  I've played Orcs and Goblins all through 6th and 7th.  I've seen the worst of the worst lists beat the living snot out of me in no comp events time and time again.  Now that I'm playing a list that has some neat toys, I have to admit that I want to try them out!  I don't want to lose Sportsmanship points.  I can see me doing the worst tricks on those opponents that are power play opponents only.  Double Slaan?  I'm using it on you....

I will say it will be interesting for my first GT with Chaos Dwarfs this weekend.  I've done Orcs and Goblins for years and only lost Best Sports at the last GT when one guy dunked me (and everyone else he played).  So....with a "broken" army, I wonder if it changes my score much?

Groznit Goregut
yep,
my advice is as the CD are a fringe race anyway, we have a responsibility to not to be a gamey player, and rather be ambassadors of the race. As such any type of play like that DOES leaves a black mark on the race as a whole. (not to mention all players fielding them) The CD are finally gaining mainstream credibility, why squander it?

The guys who rely on tactics like that, I think are probably middle-table GT players. Certainly not top tier, and almost certainly not garage players (especially if they want to have friends by the end of it, unless they are of course a part of a hard core gaming group.)

besides, as a clubmate of a player that just plays and wins with broken lists, i can tell you that it ruins the perceived ability of a player. Now I play in a GT centric club, and for the American Club championships (bragging Rights GT) which effectively is the American version of the ETC (with the best clubs coming from around the country) and the player who just recently won the NOVA OPEN, didn't make our club team. basically because we weren't convinced of his playing ability with a balanced list.. (to be fair, our entire club sans one are typically challenging at the top tables so it's not too far a stretch he didnt make the team.)

Not that this matters to any of you, but those are my thoughts. :cheers