Chaos, it isn’t always bad is it. I mean aren’t all gods derived from Chaos they just influence the world and choose to do different things. In that respect Chaos doesn’t have to be bad, just the major controllers of it are.
On the same scale if there was no evil what would life be like. The races would have nothing to fight for or do. There would be no wars, no tension just plain boring. Torture in a different form.
The Gods seem to be in a never ending continuous fight. Chaos is always nearly destroying the world. Never quite destroying it. A sort of balance, one that’s always tipping but can never tip too far. Too have one reigning would destroy the fabric and way the world works.
So does that mean the “gods” aren’t the real gods, merely creations of the “god/s” and if so who would the real god/s? and if there was on evil in them, why would they create it?
GW have stated that good and evil are not concerns of Law and Chaos and Law and Chaos are not not concerns of good or evil.
An example of Chaos leading to good: a Nurgle cultist going around vaccinating people against diseases. They then carry a very mild version of the disease forever, but people don’t suffer and die.
The followers of the Gods of Law can be just as ruthless as the followers of the Chaos Gods (Solkanites especially).
The Young Gods tend to frown upon the extremes of Law and Chaos, but may subtly influence either to the point of balance.
The Gods are the emanations of the emotions of sentients projected into the ether (Warp) and coalesced to become an embodiment.
The “evil” chaos is just an extreme version of normal emotions. Enjoy going fishing? Then when you do you are empowering Slaanesh. Moving to a new place? Tzeentch. Hope you passed an exam? Nurgle. Run your own successful business? Khorne.
“chaos” contains both “Law” and “Chaos” in the Old World. Even going back to the originator of “chaos” in Warhammer (Realms of Chaos), the Big Four have only been a small part of what is the larger elemental force that is “chaos”. It’s even suggested that the big four of “Chaos” and the other gods in “chaos” are just part of an even greater Deity.
In the end, just as patterns can seemingly emerge and disappear in a truly random system, the “Law” gods are part of chaos.
Gav Thorpe has even stated that the Chaos Gods aren’t as coherent as their followers seem to think. Tzeentch doesn’t have plans, he has schemes. There’s no end result for him, it’s just constant schemes against everything and everyone. Khorne has no intention of ruling from his throne of skulls, he just wants to kill. Nurgle makes no plans, forms no future, all he will ever wants is to keep things the same. Slaanesh is all about the ever increasing pleasures and mastery of life, while the epitomy of Carpe Dieum, he has no compunction even to the last experience of his/her/it’s own death. Their seeming attention to mortals is as much attention as you might pay to an ant crawling across the sidewalk.
I wasn’t suggesting that they actually cared, after all petty mortal how could you know evil cackle. No I was just saying that the Chaos Gods aren’t actually evil and are maybe the mind of an awesome being known only as “chaos”. Just the exaggerated side. Maybe chaos is the “God” just as a whole.
I think you need to look at what constitutes evil in the warhammer world to answer that.
There will always be wars between the races because there is no dominant one. So even if the realm of chaos disappeared there would still be wars, and ‘evil’ acts.
The chaos gods are evil in the understanding of most races, because of where they come from (evil thoughts). So most of what you’re asking depends on which point of view your’e looking at it from. To everyone but followers of chaos they are always bad.
Gods controlling everything through order would be an interesting concept, but evil in another form. If they removed anything that could be evil, and killed off all the races that were ‘inherantly’ evil they would be just as bad. Again, important from the point of view you’re looking at it from.
I think that either extreme is bad, but the fact that on the chaos side you’d have daemons walking all over the world and mutating everything makes them just a bit worse…
In support of what Kera is saying, good and/or evil is strictly a matter of view point. Law and chaos however are contradictory and its the extremes of each that contribute to the good or evil of each. Societies thrive on laws, but evolve through carefully channeled change. Change is a logically applied form of chaos. When control over change slips or is too tightly regulated it becomes evil and/or chaotic.
There’s a scfi series called Babylon 5 that explores these concepts.
Chaos ,change , can be good or evil. Evil that destroys what exist, good in that it disposes of the old and makes room for the new creative destruction, revolution.
Order , can be evil that it suppresses anything new , squelches change leading to stagnation, good in protecting and preserving.
Life can be seen as a contest between these two forces each capable of good and evil depending on the perception. Order vs. chaos, static vs. change, safety vs. freedom.
If you like to read pick up micheal moorcocks ‘Elric’ saga , some good books dealing with chaos there.
Babylon 5: Great show. Vorlons vs Shadows. Evolution through Order vs Evolution through Chaos.
Both in their extremes are ultimately brutal, cruel, and repressive. Elements of both, lead to true growth.
Personally I always thought the Shadows were cooler… Mr. Morden for the win.
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Back on track though, would the Gods of Chaos continue to exist of the people they feed off of (the people of the Warhammer world) are annihilated? Ultimately don’t they need ‘free’ minds to give them form?
I think Chaos will never truly triumph, because in order to do so… they just might perish.
I do like the example of the Nurgle zealot curing people, but only to a point where they don’t suffer and die… but still carry the disease.
Nurgle, to me, seems to be one of the Chaos Gods you could argue to be good. He creates life (microbes, etc) and enjoys this new life. Now granted, this life can be mostly harmless (a mild cold) or could be deadly as Ebola. Just like intelligent life, it can be good or bad. He believes in sharing his creations, not out of ill will (in the case of the deadly pathogens), but out of joy and love. Nurgle cares the most for his followers… indeed he is often called “Papa Nurgle”, etc.
So I would argue that Nurgle is not evil… perhaps good, but I would agree that he can be destructive in the eyes of the people of the Warhammer world.
Yeah, if Khorne killed everyone. Or anything wiped out the Warhammer world then wouldn’t the gods die? with no emotions to feed of they would die of emotional starvation.
Chaos in my mind is only evil if you use it eviley.A good example of this is in C.L Werner’s book Witch Hunter the Wichhunter Captain Helmuth Klausner uses chaos too fight chaos and the undead.So if you can do this and not get corupted,then could you use chaos fighting for the good guys? I say yes!
Yeah, if Khorne killed everyone. Or anything wiped out the Warhammer world then wouldn't the gods die? with no emotions to feed of they would die of emotional starvation.
Scion
to kill a god all you have to do is stop believing in them
sorry zeus:hat off
thats why i choose rum lol:o:o
Well my “Secret Society of Bob Dole Worshippers” (not as secret anymore) already knew the great and might Lord Bob Dole has walked among us since before our group was born. His greatest miracles were making Kansas not boring, his little blue friend, and unleashing plagues upon Brittney Spears.
Seriously though, I think Chaos will never truly “triumph” in the traditional sense. It’s triumph is that it continues to exist. True chaos can not totally exist, just as true order can not either. If anything the Chaos Gods might work to make sure the world remains divided between powers. If say, the Undead, started getting an upperhand they might find themselves assailed by Khorne so the undead don’t triumph to ensure there is always war, hatred, and rage.
One of my favorite B5 quotes was directed was directed at Mr. Morden by Vir Cotto.
I’d like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this.
