tvandyke:
In my battles without the Destroyer I seem to be on about 50/10/40 win/draw/lose, I don't feel at a disadvantage without one. In fact the only rare I use currently is Wolf Raiders and occasionally a Hell Cannon. I do generally use a Magma cannon but I don't find it as overpowered as everyone thinks.
MLP
Just to jump in on the Magma Cannon, I don't find it all that overpowered either. I've only got 8 total games in with it (5 of them at a recent tourney), but so far, my Deathshriekers seem to be a better bang for the buck. So far, in every game I've won, it's been the Deathshriekers, Destroyer and Lore of Hashut that's dominated, not the Magma Cannon.
MLP:
Although I agree that Warhammer is Monsterhammer these days and I’m not particularly happy about it, I’m not just going to stop using the two units in the list which are considered the most powerful. I’m certain that no one in any of the gaming groups I play in will be doing the same with their armies.
Is it not a bit of an insult to not bring units you think are too tough for your opponent?
Opponent “hey you lost a bit easily, doesn’t your army have a cool fire cannon and an awesome monster?!”
you “yeah but I thought you’d cry like a baby wearing a pink tutu if I brought them…”
Opponent ends friendship
In an army with a lower than average amount of troop choices it just seems ridiculous not to use all your units. No matter how powerful a unit is, it can be countered. The K’daai has plenty: Ethereal units, 2+ fire Ward unit, poison, lore of shadow, frenzy baiting. A big part of Warhammer is to figure out how to defeat your opponent’s units, so if you play in a friendly manner no-one should have a problem with you using your army’s most powerful units.
Thommy H:
Yes, that golem fluff is good - it’s a pity the K’daai fluff mentions nothing like that and its rules don’t represent a golem-like construct (i.e. slow, inexorable) at all.
Look, you’re talking to the king of making up rules for bound daemons here. I get how you can justify its presence in the list, but the fluff, as written, is pretty vague. And shouldn’t it work a bit like the Hellcannon in some way, or do Chaos Dwarfs have a bunch of different ways to bind daemons?
I’d just prefer it to fit in a bit better, that’s all. Right now it’s a generic monster.
Thommy H:
I don’t think the inclusion of the Destroyer is the same thing as the other monsters showing up in 8th Edition books - those are fine, because they actually fit with the armies they’re for. Vampires getting a massive undead bat thing (which is slow and has relatively few Attacks, as is appropriate) or O&G getting a giant spider (which has low Ld due to its Goblin riders) isn’t stretching credulity.
A huge, fast, frenzied fire daemon though? How does that fit with Chaos Dwarfs exactly?
MLP:
A huge, fast, frenzied fire daemon though? How does that fit with Chaos Dwarfs exactly?
Thommy H
We all know the real answer: Forgeworld want to sell big expensive models so will find any excuse to put one in there.
And by the looks of the new GW army books they're doing exactly the same.
Although I do think the K'daai fit in the army to an extent, I agree that the Destroyer is a bit over the top. But I think the rules probably extend from the expected price of the model. Not all people want to pay for just a good model they want to pay to use the rules in their army, so an expensive model need to be decent.
tvandyke:
Yes, that golem fluff is good - it's a pity the K'daai fluff mentions nothing like that and its rules don't represent a golem-like construct (i.e. slow, inexorable) at all.
Look, you're talking to the king of making up rules for bound daemons here. I get how you can justify its presence in the list, but the fluff, as written, is pretty vague. And shouldn't it work a bit like the Hellcannon in some way, or do Chaos Dwarfs have a bunch of different ways to bind daemons?
I'd just prefer it to fit in a bit better, that's all. Right now it's a generic monster.
Thommy H
I don't disagree with you, I just don't think the K'daai rules or even the fluff is miles away from a golem-like constuct like you do. While I wish the rules were written more like yours or Tuomas's, the K'daai still seem to be a semi-golem. The unstable and burning bright rules do represent the unpredictable nature of the bound daemon. It's just a different kind of unpredictability from the Hellcannon. In once instance you have the thing going out of control versus it falling apart. I could see both kinds of things happening if you bound a daemon into a metal construct.
Bitterman:
Just to jump in on the Magma Cannon,
tvandyke
Totally different to my experience. In my last five games, in each of which I used one MC and one DS, my Deathshrieker has killed a grand total of one Dwarf Cannon (took two hits to do it) and I think four Beastmen Gors (because I got bored of missing with the single shot at a Razorgor chariot, so fired the large template instead). In the same period, my Magma Cannon has killed, well,
something pretty much every time it fired (notwithstanding the fact that the first time I used it, it exploded on turn one, even with a Daemonsmith reroll on the misfire; and in one recent game it was killed before it could even fire, by a cannonball).
I'm currently thinking I'll never bother with the DS again and take either one or two MC from now on, instead. I know the S8, D6 Wounds shot is supposed to be good for killing big stuff but IME it's just too unlikely to hit to actually achieve anything... vastly inferior to a standard cannon in that role for the same points cost, and the added "flexibility" of a large template is simply vastly inferior to another MC anyway.
I don't think the MC is itself any more overpowered than, say, the Bretonnian Trebuchet, which no-one seems to
strongly object to (I faced two in my most recent game and lost half my main unit of Infernal Guard to them in turn one, and most of the rest in turn two). The MC is just really powerful, not too powerful.
tvandyke:
Totally different to my experience. In my last five games, in each of which I used one MC and one DS, my Deathshrieker has killed a grand total of one Dwarf Cannon (took two hits to do it) and I think four Beastmen Gors (because I got bored of missing with the single shot at a Razorgor chariot, so fired the large template instead). In the same period, my Magma Cannon has killed, well, something pretty much every time it fired (notwithstanding the fact that the first time I used it, it exploded on turn one, even with a Daemonsmith reroll on the misfire; and in one recent game it was killed before it could even fire, by a cannonball).
I'm currently thinking I'll never bother with the DS again and take either one or two MC from now on, instead. I know the S8, D6 Wounds shot is supposed to be good for killing big stuff but IME it's just too unlikely to hit to actually achieve anything... vastly inferior to a standard cannon in that role for the same points cost, and the added "flexibility" of a large template is simply vastly inferior to another MC anyway.
I don't think the MC is itself any more overpowered than, say, the Bretonnian Trebuchet, which no-one seems to strongly object to (I faced two in my most recent game and lost half my main unit of Infernal Guard to them in turn one, and most of the rest in turn two). The MC is just really powerful, not too powerful.
Bitterman
I think it bodes well that we're having different experiences with them. In my games, I've been using 2 deathshiekers and 1 magma cannon and using the deathshriekers first (almost always using my deamonsmith re-roll on those). Perhaps that's why they seemed so awesome. I think having at least one of each is a good mix. First, it won't seem like we're loading up on the "good" things from the list and secondly, I think over the course of many games, you'll find the deathshriekers are better than you think and likewise the magma cannon in my case.
Thommy H:
I don't disagree with you, I just don't think the K'daai rules or even the fluff is miles away from a golem-like constuct like you do. While I wish the rules were written more like yours or Tuomas's, the K'daai still seem to be a semi-golem. The unstable and burning bright rules do represent the unpredictable nature of the bound daemon. It's just a different kind of unpredictability from the Hellcannon. In once instance you have the thing going out of control versus it falling apart. I could see both kinds of things happening if you bound a daemon into a metal construct.
tvandyke
The problem with doing your own version of something is that, when the real version appears, it's never going to live up to what you did yourself. Not because one is objectively better or worse than the other, but simply because you did your thing your way for a reason.
So I'll never really be satisfied!
M6 on the Destroyer would be a start though...
tvandyke:
In my battles without the Destroyer I seem to be on about 50/10/40 win/draw/lose, I don't feel at a disadvantage without one. In fact the only rare I use currently is Wolf Raiders and occasionally a Hell Cannon. I do generally use a Magma cannon but I don't find it as overpowered as everyone thinks.
MLP
Just to jump in on the Magma Cannon, I don't find it all that overpowered either. I've only got 8 total games in with it (5 of them at a recent tourney), but so far, my Deathshriekers seem to be a better bang for the buck. So far, in every game I've won, it's been the Deathshriekers, Destroyer and Lore of Hashut that's dominated, not the Magma Cannon.
Discoking:
I guess why a Hellcannon acts differently to K’daai, is because a Hellcannon’s main purpose is being a type of cannon… & K’daai are fighty (specifically fire) daemons.
So a Hellcannon may occasionally rampage, trying to break free from its bound construct, but a K’daai is designed to be “alive” for a short while, melting its own body.
A hellcannon is more like hellbound warmachines, than it is like the K’daai.
And the description of K’daai is vague because they can look like anything…
Just my 2 cents…
Thommy H:
The Hellcannon isn’t much like Hellbound war machines - it can attack by itself. Hellbound machines are just tougher and scarier.
Thommy H:
Yes, that golem fluff is good - it’s a pity the K’daai fluff mentions nothing like that and its rules don’t represent a golem-like construct (i.e. slow, inexorable) at all.
Look, you’re talking to the king of making up rules for bound daemons here. I get how you can justify its presence in the list, but the fluff, as written, is pretty vague. And shouldn’t it work a bit like the Hellcannon in some way, or do Chaos Dwarfs have a bunch of different ways to bind daemons?
I’d just prefer it to fit in a bit better, that’s all. Right now it’s a generic monster.
Discoking:
That’s why its “more like” a Hellbound machine.
Not the same.
I read that people were comparing K’daai with Hellcannons, but they shouldn’t.
:cheers
Thommy H:
Why not? They’re both machines bound with daemons, apparently - they should have something in common, shouldn’t they? Like how all the Tomb Kings’ war statuary have the same special rule, and all O&G spiders have Wall Crawler and stuff like that. A suite of special rules (“Undead”, “Daemon”, “Forest Spirit”, etc.) is preferable to a load of different, disjointed ideas.
Anyway, as we’ve established, I’m not going to be satisfied with any rationale, and the rules and background won’t be changing, so it is what it is.
deadlydeceiver:
I’m with Discoking on the Hellcannon/Destroyer analogy.
Hellcannon is a possesed machine, Destroyer is an elemental/deamonic force bound in a frame (NOT a machine).
As for the rules being unfitting for the Deamon-Construct thing:
For me a destroyer is what we can see in the Monsterous Arcanum: Some kind of giant, burning juggernaut
And this is how I picture it working in battle:
The CD carry the “empty” frame, covered in runes etc. to the battlefield.
When the fighting commences the Deamonsmith’ summon the fire deamon aka fuelling the frame.
The Dwarfs clear the pass in it’s way, use some protective magic and unbind it.
The Destroyer rushes and rampages forward, taking up speed like a charging bull.
It smashes through the enemies into the next, never stopping, burning brighter and brighter. Some parts of the metal frame melt and fall off.
Finally the destroyer is smashed apart, consumed by it’s own heat or the deamon unbound. In either case all that remains of the frame is nothing more than a pool of molten metal.
So, when I try to take this picture onto the rules i have a
Fire Deamon → Wardsave, Unstable, Blazing Body
that is
Consuming itself → Burning bright
nearly uncontrollable charging the enemy like a crazed bull → Frenzy and M9
I don’t think M9 is too far from an overdriven, gigantic bull that basically does not stop charging (ok M7-8 would have been alright aswell)
In my imaginatio it is basically MISSING impact hits 
If you imagine the fire deamon to be basically it’s energy source, I think we can picture how much power it has.
I have no destroyer and never played one, but I will, as soon as the Monsterous Arcanum artwork is made reality… ^^
Best DD
SafetyTurtle:
Well, that’s another reason why I won’t be using any k’daai…even though I’m very new to chaos dwarf they just don’t fit into the “theme” for me…I have considering a conversion of some sort og huge juggernaught-bull-thingy…a mechanical destroyer as it were.
Discoking:
I think it should get weaker as it loses wounds…
Then it would be fair.
Representing the frame work melting.
Hashutcopper:
I have played against a Kdaai destroyer with my tomb kings army basicly feed it a necrosphinxs and low level wizard but the kept it busy for long enough for me to move my army away from it after that it didn’t affect the game.
when ever someone brings a new super death model my gaming group are perfcetly happy finding new and creative ways to kill it stop it or make it nearly use less in a game.
I don’t see the K’daai as being to over powered
KramDratta:
In my imaginatio it is basically MISSING impact hits ;)
deadlydeceiver
Pity they do not allow the Monstrous Arcana upgrades ...
