GDD:
Hello CD Online! My first chaos dwarfs are arriving in the mail soon, so it’s time to make some lists. Specifically against two armies I’m struggling with.
I seem to be struggling against MSU Warriors, and Dark elfs, and they are the two armies I am fighting the most in my group.
I’ve tried to make a 2500 p list against each army, but I will take any advice I can get on how to beat them.
VS MSU Warriors:
Lords
LV4
Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield, Healing potion, Staff of stability. 400 p (METAL)
Heroes
Lv1
Dispell Scroll 120 p (DEATH)
BSB
GW, Mask of the Furnace 200 p
Core
19x Infernal Guard
Champion, Banner, GW 307p (LV4 + BSB goes here). Deploy 7x3
20 Hobgoblins X3
Musician, Bows, Shield 114 p (each unit)
Special
6 Fireborn
Champion 340 p
4 Bull Centaurs
Champion, Banner, GW 220p
Magma Cannon 145 p
Deathshriker 100 p
Rare
K’daai Destroyer 325 p
The lists are usually something like:
Chariot spam, dogs, chaos cav, two chimeras, skullchrushers, LV4 on disk, deamon prince.
My plan is to bunker up the IG GW with goblins around them, with the warmachines in the back.
The LV 4 buffs the goblins, and casts on his high armor units. (This is my solution to skullchrushers). They should want to engage my infantry because of the amount of points lying there. Then they are forced into my tar pits.
The centaurs or fireborn advance with the K’daai behind them, and hopefully the fireborn/K’daai gets into combat with his chimeras.
VS DARK ELFS:
Lords
LV4
Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, Flying Carpet. 400 p (HASHUT)
Heroes
Lv1
Dispell Scroll 120 p (DEATH)
BSB
GW, Mask of the Furnace 200p
KHAN
Light Armor, Shield, Terrefying Mask of EEE! 69 p
Core
29 Infernal Guard
Full Command, Blunderbusses 554 p
25 Hobgoblins
Musician Bows, aditional handweapon 141,5 p
20 Hobgoblins
Musician,Bows
Special
6 Fireborn
Champion 340 p
Magma Cannon 145 p
Deathshriker 100 p
Rare
K’daai Destroyer 325 p
The LV4 ashstorms the opponents wizard, while hiding next to the big monsters. (To try and delay purple sun). Also the witch elf deathstar.
The warmachines focus fire the witch elfs, and shoots the hydra if the elf unit is small enough.
The IG shoot everything to pieces in stand and shoot, and the hobgoblins counter charge.
End
Edit: Tried to make my plans more readable.
I am still a beginner at warhammer, so I will greatly appreciate ANY feedback at all. Sorry for the wall of text.
sam585:
id switch out some fireborn for another rocket to help snipe chariots.
without a stubborn tauruk the bull centaurs will be very under performing in generally everything.
drop the lvl 1 and get moar infernal guard. A unit of 19 will get decimated.
Run your prophet as hashut, the augments and hexs i feel are generally way better than Lore of metal as a whole. Additionally the damage spells are awesome.
Id drop the bows from the hobgoblins to get more hobgoblins.
Vs darkelves id run the infernal guard with blunderbusses straight into the witch elves and blow them away, and feed the hobgoblins to misdirect them. Use the war machines to kill monsters first. And still id get at least 2 rockets.
GDD:
id switch out some fireborn for another rocket to help snipe chariots.
without a stubborn tauruk the bull centaurs will be very under performing in generally everything.
drop the lvl 1 and get moar infernal guard. A unit of 19 will get decimated.
Run your prophet as hashut, the augments and hexs i feel are generally way better than Lore of metal as a whole. Additionally the damage spells are awesome.
Id drop the bows from the hobgoblins to get more hobgoblins.
sam585
Regarding the fireborn vs Warriors I am starting to think it's a waste of points vs their 2+/3+ armor anyway..
Also my list is pretty weak against a deamon prince with a dragonhelm. He cold go stand in front of my K'daai, or fireborn, and laugh.
I'm thinking I drop the fireborn, and try to get a BC unit, with the stubborn Tauruk. Not sure how to allocate the points yet.
I also agree BS 3 S 3 arrows isn't doing much against armor! I'm getting more gobbos.
I do not agree on getting hashut though. The metal damage spells are too good against Warriors. Also I'm hoping the IG stay alive inside the Goblin bunker. They goblins would deploy tightly in front of them. If they get into combat it's hopefully as a counter charge.
I'm still considering more rockets, but I feel the S8 rocket is pretty unreliable, as it does not scatter a second time.
I guess my vanilla dwarf cannon has spoiled me.
Thank you for you feedback! Made me realize some important things :cheers
sam585:
Regarding the fireborn vs Warriors I am starting to think it's a waste of points vs their 2+/3+ armor anyway..
Also my list is pretty weak against a deamon prince with a dragonhelm. He cold go stand in front of my K'daai, or fireborn, and laugh.
I'm thinking I drop the fireborn, and try to get a BC unit, with the stubborn Tauruk. Not sure how to allocate the points yet.
I also agree BS 3 S 3 arrows isn't doing much against armor! I'm getting more gobbos.
I do not agree on getting hashut though. The metal damage spells are too good against Warriors. Also I'm hoping the IG stay alive inside the Goblin bunker. They goblins would deploy tightly in front of them. If they get into combat it's hopefully as a counter charge.
I'm still considering more rockets, but I feel the S8 rocket is pretty unreliable, as it does not scatter a second time.
I guess my vanilla dwarf cannon has spoiled me.
Thank you for you feedback! Made me realize some important things :cheers
GDD
The scatter is not to bad versus things like monsters and we do still get to re-roll the dice with our smiths, and it is one of our only answers for long range war machine vs war machine/ monster killing.
The only reason why I dont like lore of metal is because it is a very easy lore to counter.As a warriors of chaos player myself the only spell on that list I am truly concerned about is glittering robes, searing doom (which I would cover my important stuff with MR(3) anyway), and final transmutation which I would not have much to worry about since im msu anyway.
Lore of Hashut on the other hand, you get hatred/bubble hatred (which I feel is superior to +1 to hit from LoM) you have ash storm which has great synergy with all of our war machines and the lore of hashut damage spells and your foes must use basic movement. This spell is good vs MSU warriors because if they run a disco combat lord hey he has a movement of 1 this turn, or if he is running chimeras you can ateast delay one for another turn and they go from needing 3s to 4s to hit you which is great. And then Flames of Azgorh which IS the damage spell with its unlimited range and has the only thing with enough power to snipe a disco lord and hell even a DP with its -2 toughness test. And after that the actual template itself is brutal with its str 6 d6 wounds.
Lastly if you are dead set on running metal, id drop the sorc prophet completely and just run 2 lvl2s and use the extra points on other things.
GDD:
The scatter is not to bad versus things like monsters and we do still get to re-roll the dice with our smiths, and it is one of our only answers for long range war machine vs war machine/ monster killing.
Lore of Hashut on the other hand, you get hatred/bubble hatred (which I feel is superior to +1 to hit from LoM) you have ash storm which has great synergy with all of our war machines and the lore of hashut damage spells and your foes must use basic movement. This spell is good vs MSU warriors because if they run a disco combat lord hey he has a movement of 1 this turn, or if he is running chimeras you can ateast delay one for another turn and they go from needing 3s to 4s to hit you which is great. And then Flames of Azgorh which IS the damage spell with its unlimited range and has the only thing with enough power to snipe a disco lord and hell even a DP with its -2 toughness test. And after that the actual template itself is brutal with its str 6 d6 wounds.
Lastly if you are dead set on running metal, id drop the sorc prophet completely and just run 2 lvl2s and use the extra points on other things.
sam585
Awesome feedback again. Thank you for explaining in so much detail.
You have convinced me I need another rocket.
In a MSU Warrior list I assume Skullchrushers are "your important stuff".
How do you give them MR(3)? A Khorne chaos lord on a juggernaut, with the collar?
Can you give anything else significant MR?
I'm always obsessed with Skullchrushers it seems.
Falmes of Azgorh is pretty crazy admittedly. (I've never actually read the whole thing.)
It's both a snipe, AND a infantry killer?? And it does both unless the scatter dice shows a hit?
With unlimited range? And is cast on a 18+?? Am I reading this correctly??
So my list will likely stay the same, but with a big centaur unit, a rocket, and my Prophet on hashut.
It's tempting to make my LV1 a LV 2 with metal.. Glittering robes on shield goblins seems like fun.
I might try another list with two metal smiths.
sam585:
In a MSU Warrior list I assume Skullchrushers are "your important stuff".
How do you give them MR(3)? A Khorne chaos lord on a juggernaut, with the collar?
Can you give anything else significant MR?
Falmes of Azgorh is pretty crazy admittedly. (I've never actually read the whole thing.)
It's both a snipe, AND a infantry killer?? And it does both unless the scatter dice shows a hit?
With unlimited range? And is cast on a 18+?? Am I reading this correctly??
So my list will likely stay the same, but with a big centaur unit, a rocket, and my Prophet on hashut.
It's tempting to make my LV1 a LV 2 with metal.. Glittering robes on shield goblins seems like fun.
I might try another list with two metal smiths.
GDD
Flames of Azgorh is a killer of anything really due to d6 wounds at str6, everyone is a viable target. And yes it has unlimited range, and scatters 6inches.
In a warrior list you can take a bsb of khorne on jugger with obsidian lodestone for MR (3) and he can still get a look out sir.
You can additionally use a lord with the collar for same effect, and still get MR (3) on someone else.
ThorAxe:
Despite how good lore of hashut is, I’ve been having more luck with metal. Searing doom is good against high armor except the daemon prince, due to flaming, a number of buff and minor hex spells, and final transmutation is death to many death stars with wards plus magic resistance, which hashut sometimes has trouble with. glittering robes on infernal guard can get dirty.
I feel that the fireborn are unnecessary in your lists, that you would be better off with and taur’ruk and two extra death shriekers which can help snipe daemon princes and all of those chariots far better, and can large blast the large elite units dark elfs bring. In addition, the taur’ruk helps fight in close combat about as well as the fireborn depending on loadout, and can be set up to reliably kill of a daemon prince, and the rest of the army as a result.
Bloodbeard:
I drop the fireborn agianst chaos warriors especially MSU. Their attacks are too weak against the armor, and they can’t stomp.many of his units.
He’ll trap them too easily and waste your point.
Would rather bring a small unit of fireglaives, but better yet hand weapon and shield guys. You’ll get lot of them for your fireborn unit.
Bull centuars need that re-roll LD banner or they’ll flee. They will be out of BSB reach fast and they are never steadfast.
GDD:
Thanks to everyone for your input!
Regarding the fireborn I think they will earn their points against DE,
but I might change the list depending on how good the Tauruk preforms.
(Bloody expensive!)
After your feedback this is what my first list looks like:
VS MSU Warriors:
Lords
LV4
Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield, Healing potion, Staff of stability. 400 p (Hashut)
Heroes
Tauruk
Blackshard armor, GW, Crown of command, Dragonhelm, Potion of foolhardiness (5 points for something potentially fun)
Lv1
Dispell Scroll 120 p (Metal) (If he gets glittering robes, or enchanted blades then awesome. if not he’s going with searing doom.)
BSB
GW, Mask of the Furnace 200 p
Core
19x Infernal Guard
Champion, Banner, GW 307p (LV4 + BSB goes here). Deploy 7x3
25 Hobgoblins X3
Musician, Shields 112,5 p (each unit)
Special
4 Bull Centaurs
Champion, Banner, GW 220p
Magma Cannon 145 p
Deathshriker 100 p
Deathshriker 100 p
Rare
K’daai Destroyer 325 p