Kyte:
By closer inspection, I like the list… Just had to get over the shock I got when reading that BTS had been dropped… Anyone can tell me what a gorg is? I like the idea of a steam-driven chariot though.
a quick question: How come arcane engeneers can’t have black plate?
- Kyte
Revlid:
By closer inspection, I like the list... Just had to get over the shock I got when reading that BTS had been dropped... Anyone can tell me what a gorg is? I like the idea of a steam-driven chariot though.Gorg: A bigger, tougher, meaner wolf. The name itself is a corruption of Worg (a fantasy wolf-beast) while also being Persian for "wolf".
a quick question: How come arcane engeneers can't have black plate?
Kyte
Grimstonefire:
The Darklands Chariot isn't drawn by anything. It is a steedless chariot, drawn by a daemon-engine.I think the way this is written is confusing. Either it should be a machine like steam tank, or a chariot pulled by something.
itcamefromthedeep:
There are no basic cannons, stonethrowers, bolthrowers, etc, to use the Upgrades on? Why is that a problem?---It seems a little inappropriate to use some of the upgrades on a death rocket (because, well, its a bunch of rockets with a platform, not a machine), which leaves the Doomblaster and the Earthshaker. The Hobbo bolt thrower should not be demonic, for what I hope are obvious reasons. The Doomblaster does exactly strike me as a weapon that can take advantage of a reroll of the scatter dice or a bonus to the strength of its hits, which really leaves the Earthshaker to take advantage of all the neat gubbins you have on the list. Your upgrades might as well be listed under the Earthshaker entry.
Revlid
Why would 20 Marauders get in a fight with a Warmachine?---Who cares? a Horde of troops should not be helpless before the might of a scary-looking toaster. If Marauders can kill a Greater Demon (its hard, but at least possible), they should be able to dismatle a friggin' cannon.
The best way to get rid of them is to use the usual anti-warmachine troops. ...All of these things can charge a Daemonic Warmachine relatively early, kill the crew (who rank up alongside it), and then flee or get killed,---Great. I could summon a hundred skeletons in front of it and the best they can do it stand there and look dumb while they get chewed up? All things in this game must be killable, somehow, by your average dude. Besides, even a trio of Terradons will have trouble killing three Dwarf crew in heavy armor in one turn.
---If you have the tools to do it better, why not? That's the idea behind redoing this army list, after all. The Hellcannon would most likely use those rules if it came out tomorrow.---For mixed unit, you might want to take advantage of the "monster with handlers" rules in the basic rule book.The Mixed Unit rules come directly from the Hellcannon.
itcamefromthedeep
Revlid
That's one auto-wound inflicted upon wizards every game if you max out on warmachines (which takes 800 points minimum, and requires you take only Doomblasters and Earthshakers from Special and Rare), and aren't interrupted in your shooting.---Average is an average, which means half the time it will be more, and half the time it will be less. When you run the risk of autokilling every Hero-level wizard on the field, you don't take that kind of chance. And if you were to play 6000pts? All I am asking for here is a range for that effect.
Cool fluff? It's just a platform or litter the Sorcerer is carried in by Temple Guard. :D---Tha sound suspiciously like a certain other unit I can think of coughSlaancough.
-1 point for -1Ld seems fair enough to me.---It's not. Particularly not when much of the time, it isn't even -1 Leadership (that's what the comment about the general was about).
---For a five wide unit, that's the difference between 15 shots and 20. Is it two shots for the first rank plus one for the second, or one shot from the firs plus one for the the second, both multiplied by two?---I like the Blunderbuss rule you have, probably because it is similar to the rule I used. Quick question: do the back ranks in your version give one extra shot or multiple shots? Make sure the wording is ironclad.Well, they're already Multiple Shots, and don't count any modifiers, so why would it make a difference? :question:
itcamefromthedeep
Revlid
It's basically a Banshee Scream based on Toughness with a chance to Misfire. Even using Mathshammer, the average wounds are the same at Short Range.---Why does it autohit and autowound? The autohitting crowd is not one you want to add to. It includes Salamanders, Organ guns, the Anvil of Doom, Ratling Guns, and the recently departed Hellblaster. And it includes Banshees and the Casket of Souls. An autohitting War Machine is uncool (I'm sure you have heard all about the ones mentioned above) Banshees don't do all that much damage (at a far shorter range) and there is a way of stopping the Casket of Souls.
Revlid:
I think the way this is written is confusing. Either it should be a machine like steam tank, or a chariot pulled by something.Imagine something like this, with Chaos Dwarf Crew, and give it an extra set of wheels behind the first.
If its 'drawn'��by a daemon engine (or anything actually), that needs a profile.
If its like a tank with its own internal daemon engine, it shouldn't be called a chariot, and should have different rules IMO.
Grimstonefire
Otherwise though a good list.��It has a more eastern feel to it than many lists, which I presume is what you are heading for?In a way, yes.
Grimstonefire
It seems a little inappropriate to use some of the upgrades on a death rocket (because, well, its a bunch of rockets with a platform, not a machine), which leaves the Doomblaster and the Earthshaker. The Hobbo bolt thrower should not be demonic, for what I hope are obvious reasons. The Doomblaster does exactly strike me as a weapon that can take advantage of a reroll of the scatter dice or a bonus to the strength of its hits, which really leaves the Earthshaker to take advantage of all the neat gubbins you have on the list. Your upgrades might as well be listed under the Earthshaker entry.I can't see why it would be inappropriate to use any of the upgrades available to the Death Rocket on it, save for perhaps Soul Hunger.
itcamefromthedeep
---Who cares? a Horde of troops should not be helpless before the might of a scary-looking toaster. If Marauders can kill a Greater Demon (its hard, but at least possible), they should be able to dismatle a friggin' cannon.Why? The only reason they can destroy a cannon normally is that it does fight back so they can smash up the vulnerable parts. If anything this cannon is tougher than those cannons, and it can fight back.
---Great. I could summon a hundred skeletons in front of it and the best they can do it stand there and look dumb while they get chewed up? All things in this game must be killable, somehow, by your average dude. Besides, even a trio of Terradons will have trouble killing three Dwarf crew in heavy armor in one turn.3 Terradons will kill at least two of the crew on the charge, take at most one casualty, and then either kill the last crew member next turn or hit-and-run and kill the last crew-member next turn. No harder than taking out a Dwarf warmachine, save for the fact that the warkachine can bite back.
itcamefromthedeep
---If you have the tools to do it better, why not? That's the idea behind redoing this army list, after all. The Hellcannon would most likely use those rules if it came out tomorrow.A fair point. I'll have a look at those rules.
itcamefromthedeep
---Average is an average, which means half the time it will be more, and half the time it will be less. When you run the risk of autokilling every Hero-level wizard on the field, you don't take that kind of chance. And if you were to play 6000pts? All I am asking for here is a range for that effect.Another fair point. A 24" range it is. And I'll allow Ward Saves.
itcamefromthedeep
---Tha sound suspiciously like a certain other unit I can think of coughSlaancough.Or Shieldbearers, or the War Altar, or countless other real-world equivalents.
itcamefromthedeep
---It's not. Particularly not when much of the time, it isn't even -1 Leadership (that's what the comment about the general was about).
itcamefromthedeep
---For a five wide unit, that's the difference between 15 shots and 20. Is it two shots for the first rank plus one for the second, or one shot from the firs plus one for the the second, both multiplied by two?Another good point. I'll clarify. Two shots from the first rank, one from the second.
itcamefromthedeep
Why does it autohit and autowound? The autohitting crowd is not one you want to add to. It includes Salamanders, Organ guns, the Anvil of Doom, Ratling Guns, and the recently departed Hellblaster. And it includes Banshees and the Casket of Souls. An autohitting War Machine is uncool (I'm sure you have heard all about the ones mentioned above) Banshees don't do all that much damage (at a far shorter range) and there is a way of stopping the Casket of Souls.Banshees are harder to nullify and more manuverable, and always have a +2 Bonus.
itcamefromthedeep
itcamefromthedeep:
If you can come up with a solution (other than lowering the toughness to 6) then by all means, do so.---Giving the war machines some kind demonic instability, losing wounds for losing combat, that would be perfect. This could represent actual demonic instability or carefully dismantling the machine.
itcamefromthedeep
---It was just that the model is carried into battle on a palanquin carried by "Temple Guard". Temple Guard is already a unit name, which should be changed anyway, but the other parallels deserve attention. You don't have to scrap the idea, but make it sufficiently different and cool to evoke a uniquely Chaos Dwarf feel.---Tha sound suspiciously like a certain other unit I can think of coughSlaancough.Or Shieldbearers, or the War Altar, or countless other real-world equivalents.
itcamefromthedeep
Revlid
Another good point. I'll clarify. Two shots from the first rank, one from the second.---Cool. A minor point, but clarity is critical, as I am learning with Firefists.
Revlid
Banshees are harder to nullify and more manuverable, and always have a +2 Bonus.---I would suggest that you use the rules for a stone thrower, but instead of doing conventional hits, any unit partially or wholly covered by the template (use the big template) suffers the effect of a banshee scream (2D6+2, maybe 2D6+3 or +4 to fix the average a bit). That would incorporate existing war machine rules we are all comfortable with but it does something different with them (and it does it in a way that does not deal with those fiddly partially covered models). I really think you are onto something good by making use of the banshee scream rules, it just needs a little deevelopment to bring it into the existing rules framework in a cool way. Note that while this gives it a greater chance of missing, it also has a chance of affecting multiple units.
The initial version of the Doomblaster had to roll to hit before rolling the D6+1/2, but that was dropped for some reason. I'll try to remember what it was. Do you think it would be a good idea to bring it back, given the relatively short range of the warmachine?
Revlid
Revlid:
---Giving the war machines some kind demonic instability, losing wounds for losing combat, that would be perfect. This could represent actual demonic instability or carefully dismantling the machine.But why would they have Daemonic Instability of any kind? The whole point of them being bound into the warmachines is that they are stable, and stay in this plane while
itcamefromthedeep
---It was just that the model is carried into battle on a palanquin carried by "Temple Guard". Temple Guard is already a unit name, which should be changed anyway, but the other parallels deserve attention. You don't have to scrap the idea, but make it sufficiently different and cool to evoke a uniquely Chaos Dwarf feel.The Slann isn't actually carried by the Temple Guard, but whatever.
itcamefromthedeep
itcamefromthedeep:
But why would they have Daemonic Instability of any kind? The whole point of them being bound into the warmachines is that they are stable. Case in point, Hellcannon doesn't have it, and nor do the multitude of daemon-bound Chaos Magic Items.---True, but Undead do, and so do swarms (now). It's game balance thing. I'm not sure why the Hellcannon does not have it, but then again I'm not sure why the Hellcannon can beat the snot out of a Greater Demon. Bad bit of rules writing, methinks.
Revlid
The Slann isn't actually carried by the Temple Guard, but whatever.---They used to be. I should have qualified that better. The Temple Guard thing is still pretty big.
Revlid
The "palaquin" would actually look more like a litter,---Thanks for the pic. It's the same idea though. I'm sure you can see my point by now, and why I'm not terribly impressed with the idea. I do see how it works with the ossification, and having the leader rise above a sea of dwarfs looks cool on the battlefield (RE: shieldbearers). Convince me that people won't be thinking Slaan knockoff when they first see it, because that's what I thought.
Revlid
Grimstonefire:
Convince me that people won't be thinking Slaan knockoff when they first see it, because that's what I thought.The reason they carry their revered leaders is the same reason the CD sorcerer could be carried.��With both of them its partly because of their limited mobility (in terms of appearance), but also fluff wise its I guess so they can focus better on the enemy rather than on simply moving,
itcamefromthedeep
metro_gnome:
i certainly dont think slaan…
i think of other more squat and beardy creatures…
Revlid:
Included in the Daemonic Engine ruleset.
Without its crew to man it, the ties that bind the daemon within it’s metal prison can grow perilously weak. This deterioration is not aided in the slightest by the presence of its foes, who hack at delicate runes and mechanisms.
If there are no crew left to man the Daemonic Engine at the end of a Combat Phase, and it has lost combat, then it takes one wound in addition to any it may have incurred in the combat.
Also edited the Mixed Unit rules.
metro_gnome:
oh… thats a shame…
looks like the best of them got sent off to archaon eh?
Revlid:
oh... thats a shame...I respond to this with the entirely unsubstantiated claim that the daemonic energies surrounding Archaon's army suplemented those of the daemons in the engines. They were allied rather than enslaved.
looks like the best of them got sent off to archaon eh?
metro_gnome
itcamefromthedeep:
—The Hellcannon is a rediculous bit of rules writing. It would fit in far better with the age of Herohammer. The thing has four Attacks! Why in God’s name does it have four Attacks? (rhetorical) The artillery piece eats dragons!
—Ignore the current Hellcannon rules, they just don’t make sense.
metro_gnome:
whatever… itz still T7 unbreakable when it engages your own troops… when it eats your dragon…
the enemy has 3 dwarfs to kill and then your 270 point monster treats you like a bad girl…
and all you can do is pray…
itz totally not worth itz point at 2K… and has to work for itz point from 2.5 on…
itz certainly not a reliable piece of kit…
Hobgoblyn:
I think the prices for these War Machines doesn’t properly cover what they do.
If you have 4 attacks on a S5 T7 W3-5 model that can charge 2d6" then you have to pay for a monster with those stats on top of whatever you may for the cool weapon.
The stats for War Machines are statted with the assumption that they work as neigh-impenetrable shields for the crew, but once the crew is dead the War Machine ceases to be a meaningful presence on the battlefield.
Here you are creating a machine that sans its crew still functions perfectly fine as both a giant gun AND a giant monster until its neigh impenetrable stats. This actually moves you outside the standard rules for WarMachines and puts you in new territory. The standard point cost for WarMachines no longer and the T7 W3 on most WarMachines should not be considered as part of the cost of that original WarMachine. Those are stats for something that dies instantly when the crew is killed.
Now, as ICFTM has pointed out, your WarMachines are actually basically unbeatable in hand to hand against most units in the game. It scores wounds, cannot be hurt and even if it is beaten by CR it doesn’t break…
Of course, giving it a rule where it loses wounds equal to the amount it lost combat by if it fails a Ld test (and its Ld should be VERY low if the squad is killed, like 4 or 5) is a step in the right direction at least… But you still have to set the costs correctly.
Also, I have to wonder if it is really necessary to turn ALL Chaos Dwarf WarMachines into effectively giant 200+ point creatures. Hell Cannon should more or less keep the same stats it has now (it JUST came out afterall) and Hell Blaster could work too since it is new, but is it really necessary to add these things to Death Rockets and Earthshakers?
itcamefromthedeep:
—See the thread on war machines. I think I have a suitable compromise there. Or at least an idea to hammer out.
metro_gnome:
again i do not understand how you have missed the part where it kills you… like really…
Revlid:
I think the prices for these War Machines doesn't properly cover what they do.There are 4 Warmachines in the list, one of which takes up a Rare and a Special choice.
If you have 4 attacks on a S5 T7 W3-5 model that can charge 2d6" then you have to pay for a monster with those stats on top of whatever you may for the cool weapon.
Hobgoblyn
The stats for War Machines are statted with the assumption that they work as neigh-impenetrable shields for the crew, but once the crew is dead the War Machine ceases to be a meaningful presence on the battlefield.Quite right. Once the crew are dead the Warmachine ceases to be a detriment to you or the enemy. Done, finished.
Hobgoblyn
Here you are creating a machine that sans its crew still functions perfectly fine as both a giant gun AND a giant monster until its neigh impenetrable stats.
Hobgoblyn
The standard point cost for WarMachines no longer and the T7 W3 on most WarMachines should not be considered as part of the cost of that original WarMachine. Those are stats for something that dies instantly when the crew is killed.As opposed to stats of something that becomes an instant detriment to your army the moment the crew are killed, and essentially makes a gunline ridiculously unfeasible?
Hobgoblyn
Now, as ICFTM has pointed out, your WarMachines are actually basically unbeatable in hand to hand against most units in the game. It scores wounds, cannot be hurt and even if it is beaten by CR it doesn't break...3 Terradons (to use the earlier example) will very easily kill the crew of the machine. But what if, for some bizzare reason, you wanted to destroy the Daemonic Engine itself?
Hobgoblyn
Also, I have to wonder if it is really necessary to turn ALL Chaos Dwarf WarMachines into effectively giant 200+ point creatures. Hell Cannon should more or less keep the same stats it has now (it JUST came out afterall) and Hell Blaster could work too since it is new, but is it really necessary to add these things to Death Rockets and Earthshakers?Hellblaster? That's an Empire warmachine.
Hobgoblyn
Revlid:
Proto-Rules Changes to the Doom Blaster.
I’d like to avoid using the Stonethrower rules, as they are used in all the other warmachines already.
10. Firing the Doomblaster - Fire as a Bolt Thrower from the Warhammer Rulebook with the following exceptions. 24" Range. Count no negative To Hit modifiers except for cover. If you hit successfully, rather than rolling to wound, roll a D6, add 2 and subtract the target unit’s Toughness (if targeting war machines with varied crews, use the highest Toughness value available). If the target is at Long Range, subtract 1 from the roll. The result is the number of wounds that the target unit takes (no armor saves are allowed). If shooting at war machines or monsters with riders, randomize the wounds like normal shooting hits, discarding wounds scored against the war machine itself. The Doomblaster Misfires on the roll of a 1 To Hit.
10. Firing the Doomblaster - Fire as a Cannon in the Warhammer Rulebook with the following exceptions. Only the first unit the shot passes over (whether before or after “bouncing”) is hit. Rather than rolling to wound, roll a D6, add 2 and subtract the target unit’s Toughness (if targeting war machines with varied crews, use the highest Toughness value available). The result is the number of wounds that the target unit takes (no armor saves are allowed). If shooting at war machines or monsters with riders, randomize the wounds like normal shooting hits, discarding wounds scored against the war machine itself.
