[Archive] Warhammer Armies: Chaos Dwarfs (Revlid)

metro_gnome:

i like the second better…

Hobgoblyn:

Why are you doing this weird d6+2-T= W mechanic?

It is quite weird. First, because it actually guarantees at least 1 wound against T2 and I can’t think of anything else that guarantees one wound. And, in fact, if you compare it to the usual mechanics of having to roll to hit and then roll to wound, the number of wounds you are scoring with this thing.

Did you take the time to write out a chart of what this weapon is doing and compare it to the probability of scoring a wound when you account for shooting at BS3 and actually wounding. Figure out roughly how many attacks of what Strength of attack you are effectively doing the equivalent of against each Toughness characteristic between 2-7.

Revlid:

Why are you doing this weird d6+2-T= W mechanic?
It is quite weird. First, because it actually guarantees at least 1 wound against T2 and I can't think of anything else that guarantees one wound. And, in fact, if you compare it to the usual mechanics of having to roll to hit and then roll to wound, the number of wounds you are scoring with this thing.

Hobgoblyn
Frankly, there are few missle weapons in the game that don't practically guarantee at least one wound against T2. Boo-hoo, Skinks and some Swarms take auto-wounds. That's it.
And what about the number of wounds I am scoring with this thing?

Let's compare it to a regular Bolt Thrower against a unit of Ogres, using (obliviously) the Bolt Thrower-style rules.
Assuming it's a frontal shot at Short Range (which vastly favours the Doomblaster), the Bolt Thrower will do 2 Wounds. The Doom Blaster will do (D6=4, 4+2=6, 6-4=2) 2 Wounds.
This would be reduced by one at Long Range, and would not improve with a flank shot.
This also assumes no Misfire on the Doomblaster's part, something the Bolt Thrower doesn't have to worry about.
Did you take the time to write out a chart of what this weapon is doing and compare it to the probability of scoring a wound when you account for shooting at BS3 and actually wounding. Figure out roughly how many attacks of what Strength of attack you are effectively doing the equivalent of against each Toughness characteristic between 2-7.

Hobgoblyn
BS4, actually, and yes, I did.
T2, Short Range: The largest, 1-6 wounds. Any roll is at least one wound. Average 4 Wounds.
T3, Short Range: 0-5 wounds, Roll of a 2-3-4-5-6. Average 3 Wounds.
T4, Short Range: 0-4 wounds, Roll of a 3-4-5-6. Average 2 Wounds
T5, Short Range: 0-3 wounds, Roll of a 4-5-6. Average 1 Wound.
T6, Short Range: 0-2 wounds, Roll of a 5-6. Average 0 Wounds.
T7, Short Range: Wounds on a 6. Average 0 Wounds.
T2, Long Range: 0-5 wounds. Roll of a 2-3-4-5-6. Average 3 Wounds.
T3, Long Range: 0-4 wounds, Roll of a 3-4-5-6. Average 2 Wounds.
T4, Long Range: 0-3 wounds, Roll of a 4-5-6. Average 1 Wound.
T5, Long Range: 0-2 wounds, Roll of a 5-6. Average 0 Wounds.
T6, Long Range: 0-1 wounds, Roll of a 6. Average 0 Wounds.
T7, Long Range: Impossible to wound. Average 0 Wounds.

Incidentally, I've decided on the Bolt Thrower mechanic.
:hashut

itcamefromthedeep:

Quite right. Once the crew are dead the Warmachine ceases to be a detriment to you or the enemy. Done, finished. Once the crew are dead on these warmachines, however, they rampage into anything nearby, including other warmachines.

Revlid
---No, before the weapon rampages, it ties up the unit it is fighting for a couple of turns or kills them entirely. If Fell Bats charge one your war machines, the bats die, because htey can't hurt T7 and they can't flee. Or, if the bats get lucky, then they might survive until the end of the game. Not only can many units not flee, at all, but you put the ones that CAN flee in the position of WANTING to flee. That is so incredibly uncool it's beyond belief. Even something as awesome as a Tomb Scorpion could charge the thing and be stuck there trying to kill it for the rest of the game.
As opposed to stats of something that becomes an instant detriment to your army the moment the crew are killed, and essentially makes a gunline ridiculously unfeasible?

Revlid
---It makes a gunline better. Even if the chargers kill the crew on the first turn, they may well be stuck in combat forever. If they cannot hurt it, then they may win or tie combat on outnumbering. If they lose combat, they might easily pass their break test. Your rampaging war machines ties those skirmishers up for a long time, even if the skirmishers can kill it.
With entirely average rolls, the (3) Terradons destroy the warmachine in three Combat Phases. Any ranked unit with S3 would do the same, and ranked units with S4 (depressingly common these days) could do it even quicker. Ogres will beat them, as will combat skirmishers. What exactly is supposed to fail against them? Units of 10 Archers? Skinks?

Revlid
---With entirely average rolls, the Terradons take 2 turns to kill the crew, and then 4 turns to kill the machine. That is assuming that none of the Terradons take wounds in return. If you do not assume that, then the terradons die after 7 rounds of combat, that assuming they pass their break tests.

---S3 cannot wound T7. That is the entirety of the problem.

cornixt:

I wouldn’t bother with such a confusing way of calculating wounds, it would turn people off straight away.

Revlid:

---No, before the weapon rampages, it ties up the unit it is fighting for a couple of turns or kills them entirely. If Fell Bats charge one your war machines, the bats die, because htey can't hurt T7 and they can't flee.

itcamefromthedeep
So 60 points of Bats ties up a 95 point (minimum) warmachine, or are killed and send it rocketing into your troops? Sounds like a good deal to me.
Not only can many units not flee, at all, but you put the ones that CAN flee in the position of WANTING to flee. That is so incredibly uncool it's beyond belief. Even something as awesome as a Tomb Scorpion could charge the thing and be stuck there trying to kill it for the rest of the game.

itcamefromthedeep
How so? It kills the crew in the first round, and does a wound via winning combat. Next round (assuming no 6s rolled) it does a wound via winning combat, next round (assuming no 6s rolled) it does a wound via winning combat. Warmachine dead.
---It makes a gunline better. Even if the chargers kill the crew on the first turn, they may well be stuck in combat forever. If they cannot hurt it, then they may win or tie combat on outnumbering.

itcamefromthedeep
In which case it loses a wound. Rinse, repeat. If you win, you win. If you lose, you lose and win. If you tie it up, you tie up an expensive warmachine with a unit that probably didn't cost as much.
If they lose combat, they might easily pass their break test. Your rampaging war machines ties those skirmishers up for a long time, even if the skirmishers can kill it.

itcamefromthedeep
Could you present me with any anti-artillery units who are, in a normal-sized unit, more expensive than the warmachine and yet not tough enough to kill it/have the ability to leave combat.
---With entirely average rolls, the Terradons take 2 turns to kill the crew, and then��4 turns to kill the machine. That is assuming that none of the Terradons take wounds in return. If you do not assume that, then the terradons die after 7 rounds of combat, that assuming they pass their break tests.

itcamefromthedeep
No, they'll take 2 turns to kill the crew, and do a wound via combat-resolution every turn after the first. So, assuming no wounds against the 'Dons or the Warmachine, it takes 4 turns to kill it. Even assuming the machine does a wound per turn on the terradons, they still kill it in 4 turns.
This is, again, assuming that you don't simply use the Hit-and-Run rule.
I wouldn't bother with such a confusing way of calculating wounds, it would turn people off straight away.

cornixt
Because the Banshee and Casket of Souls are well-known to be avoided due to the Steam Tank-like complexity of their rules.
:hashut

itcamefromthedeep:

How so? It kills the crew in the first round, and does a wound via winning combat.

Revlid
---There we go. I thought you were arguing that a rule for doing wounds for winning combat resolution was not necessary. I think we have been agreeing for the last couple of posts.

Revlid:

---There we go. I thought you were arguing that a rule for doing wounds for winning combat resolution was not necessary. I think we have been agreeing for the last couple of posts.

itcamefromthedeep
If there are no crew left to man the Daemonic Engine at the end of a Combat Phase, and it has lost combat, then it takes one wound in addition to any it may have incurred in the combat.

Revlid
From a bit earlier, added to the Daemonic Engines ruleset since. You must have missed it.

EDIT: Despite my earlier comment about Master Engineers not having Gromril Armour, I have since discovered that they do, in fact, have Gromril Armour. Hoo boy, is my face red. Edited into the list.
:hashut

Grimstonefire:

As its designed for a machine vaguely similar to Revlids Doom blaster I will put up some more rules to consider;

Choose a target within Line of Sight and with a maximum distance of 24" of the Soul Reaper. Throw 2D6 then add a number depending on the distance to the target:

Within���� Add ������

24"��������+0

18"��������+1

12"��������+2

Should these 2D6 result in a double, roll D6 and use the result of the Malfunction Table.

The enemy target unit suffers as many wounds as the result is higher than its leadership. No armour save allowed.


Now I know its not exactly the same as yours, but if its confusing people its something to consider :slight_smile:

Xander:

Would that be the base Ld value of the target unit? Or the modified Ld thanks to characters in the unit?

Revlid:

I honestly don’t see why the rules are considered confusing.

Roll to hit. If you hit, roll a D6+2. Take away the target’s Toughness. That’s the number of wounds you do.

hal:

Sounds simple enough to me.

Hobgoblyn:

I honestly don't see why the rules are considered confusing.
Roll to hit. If you hit, roll a D6+2. Take away the target's Toughness. That's the number of wounds you do.

Revlid
Well, here is the thing...
Comparing your mechanic of a miximum number of hits decreasing against higher T and a 1/6 chance of increase for each wound and compariing that to a normal 2/3rds chance to hit we end up having to figure out a 1/2 chance to wound to end up at the same 1/6 chance for each wound.
Your weapon equivalently does this

vs T2 = 6 S2 shots (except one is guaranteed to pass)
vs T3 = 5 S3 shots
vs T4 = 4 S4 shots
vs T5 = 3 S5 shots
vs T6 = 2 S6 shots
vs T7 = 1 S6 shot

It is one less dice in each category for a long-ranged shot.

I don't know of anything else that has this sort of mechanic or really can rationalize it well. Note also that this weapon ignores all armor. Every shot is done with auto-armor penetration, so it is technically more meaningful against people in heavy or better armor...
So, I really don't know how comparible to a bolt thrower this is.

Now, I don't know if this is way over the top or unbalanced, but I just wanted you to understand what your... unique wound calculation mechanic was doing.

Revlid:

After reading this thread, I’m tempted (though not really convinced) to add Chaos Dwarf Berserkers to the list.

I’m also considering (after seeing the palanquin-borne kings and generals of 300) making the Palanquin a mount choice for Despots and Overlords, rather than just Sorcerers.

Finally, the rule Blessing of Darkness has been edited: It still confers MR (1) unconditionally, but no longer makes the Ziggurat Guard/Lammasu Stubborn unless they are accompanied by a Sorcerer or High Sorcerer.

Revlid:

Updated the first post:

Immortals may now swap out their Greatweapons for Additional Handweapons.

Chaos Dwarf Warriors may now swap out their Shields for Additional Handweapons.

And, most noticeably, FLUFF SNIPPETS have been added! :hat off

Also note the above post.

Revlid:

As another little tweaking change:

Chaos Dwarf Warriors can no longer take Great Weapons.

Lord Zarkov:

that’s fairly odd, why?

cornixt:

A bit strange given that the last official warriors had huge honking axes.

Revlid:

After being given a thorough look over in another forum, this list is set to be tweaked in costs/options shortly. I’ll do it all at once, so it won’t be for a day or so, but it basically makes the last update a glorifed bump. (GWs are back)

Slaver_of_Zharr:

firstly i have a suggestion, add a BC lord, then give him a special rule similar to that of the Doombull (if the Bull Centaur lord is the army’s general, then Bull Centaurs are a Special/Core choice)

also id scrap the Chariot (doesnt really fit in with the rest of the army) and the lore of Hasut (Iron, Fire, and shadow work fine IMO)

other than that, good work:cheers