[Archive] Warhammer Armies Fishmen WIP Help Needed

Archive [Archive] Rules Development
1

Kyte:

Here is my take on an army of fishmen.

http://www.filejumbo.com/Download/85104ADEE2A74B8C/

Feel free to come with suggestions, ideas, constructive critics, magic items, unit entries, well everything.

I Intend to use my fishman sculpts for the army. As many of you might already know, the army is meant to be able to double as a lizardman army in official games, though the two armylists are not meant be very similar in playstyle.

My fishman sculpts can be found here, and in my various army-blogs on various forums.

http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=40575&highlight=

I am currently sculpting a Lesser priest on skyray (Skink priest on terradon, I hope these are available when the new book comes out) and a Cthulhu High Priest (Slann on foot)

Thanks

- Kyte

2

Hashut’s Blessing:

“Characters mounted on the same mounts as flying cavalry may join these rules, even though different rules are stated in the BRB.” the first ‘rules’ should be units.

“Cthulhu High Priests have huge magical powers, and can control unlimited units without a penalty, but Cthulhu priests are not so powerful and so suffer from a -1 to cast penalty for each additional unit controlled.” Maybe have high priests be -1 for every 10 or something (for game balance. These aren’t the most powerful ones :wink: ).

“Non magical, non war machine shooting” mundane, non-warmachine shooting.

“Trench-Guard” before it wasn’t hyphonated. Choose one.

“Leviathan (100x50mm base)” (50x100mm base) otherwise it’s really wide and half as long :wink:

A quick glance at the stats and they all look fine (although I’ve honestly not spent much time going through them). One thing, might be add to add a visual description next to each (Cthulhu High Priest is a large crab-like humanoid or a Dagon Warlord is reminiscent of a Sea Lion fish humanoid or something).

“The priest has +1WS, S, I and A on his profile.” 30 points isn’t much for this kind of bonus. 35 might be about right.

“Magic immunity - 25 points The priest is somehow strangely resistant to magic. This ability seems to affect nearby units. The priest and any unit he joins has Magic Resistance (1).” Maybe have this as conch-necklace instead. Might sound better. The sounds inside conches are trapped magics, not the sea, lol.

“High Priest Acolyte - 40 Points (Priest only) The priest is the acolyte of a great high-priest, and even though he has much left to learn, his magical abilities are far more potent than other priests. The priest is a level 3 wizard in all respects.” This is usually 50 points difference plus stats costs.

“Deep Scribe - 15 points The priest has spent centuries writing down records of the arts of magic. The priest knows one more spell than normal.” Consider upping this to 35 (probably 40) points and counting as a dispel scroll as well.

“Highly Resilient - 20 points The Priest is somehow able to take a lot more damage than his kin. The priest has an extra Wound.” This is usually closer to 50 points.

Can thre Master Spellbindings be combined? So you could give a High Priest 2 and 3 for an extra 5 units? Maybe list them as Pirest only and High Priests can control 2 or even 3 units anyway?

“Coral Blade - 45 points” Maybe change the name slightly (like White coral or something to make it sound more special) and change the cost to 35 points or less.

“Spear of insanity - 20 points” trident would be better (ruleswise if not namewise). Thought of a cool name: Trident of Peril. Same rules (or new ones if you wish to include an extra item), but it makes them see their worst nightmares (casuing the stupidity).

“All seeing pearl - 30 points This magical pearl allows its owner to see the unseen. The bearer counts as having unlimited line of sight for spellbinding purposes” Change this to His LoS for spellbinding purposes counts as the battlefield.

“Glaive-staff - 10 points This magical staff is potent at casting spells, but also a deadly combat weapon. The Glaive-staff counts as a magical Great weapon.” I’d suggest halberd as that’s what a glaive is closest to and also make it a magic weapon instead.

Other things to note are capital letters and full-stops. Otherwise, it looks good to me! (I hope this doesn’t sound disheartening, it’s all meant constructively…)

3

Kyte:

Thanks a lot for the critique. I’ve replied to your points.

“Characters mounted on the same mounts as flying cavalry may join these rules, even though different rules are stated in the BRB.” the first ‘rules’ should be units.

Hashut’s Blessing
you’re right
“Cthulhu High Priests have huge magical powers, and can control unlimited units without a penalty, but Cthulhu priests are not so powerful and so suffer from a -1 to cast penalty for each additional unit controlled.” Maybe have high priests be -1 for every 10 or something (for game balance. These aren’t the most powerful ones :wink: ).

Hashut’s Blessing
remember that if a high priest controls more units and gets killed, the controlled units have a big chance of dying.
“Non magical, non war machine shooting” mundane, non-warmachine shooting.

Hashut’s Blessing
Whatever sounds best.
“Trench-Guard” before it wasn’t hyphonated. Choose one.

Hashut’s Blessing
Sorry, but I don’t understand…
“Leviathan (100x50mm base)” (50x100mm base) otherwise it’s really wide and half as long :wink:

Hashut’s Blessing
fair enough. I could just write ‘chariot base’
A quick glance at the stats and they all look fine (although I’ve honestly not spent much time going through them). One thing, might be add to add a visual description next to each (Cthulhu High Priest is a large crab-like humanoid or a Dagon Warlord is reminiscent of a Sea Lion fish humanoid or something).

Hashut’s Blessing
Fluff will be added later on. Along with special characters, more magic items and the lore of the sea. Cthulhu are squid-headed humanoids with a beard made of tentacles, and Dagons are just larger fishmen though.
“The priest has +1WS, S, I and A on his profile.” 30 points isn’t much for this kind of bonus. 35 might be about right.

Hashut’s Blessing
Thinking of how weak the priests are, the boost doesn’t make them that much better. I could see it being too cheap for high-priests, who are descent fighters, so maybe make costs different or make it priest only?
“Magic immunity - 25 points The priest is somehow strangely resistant to magic. This ability seems to affect nearby units. The priest and any unit he joins has Magic Resistance (1).” Maybe have this as conch-necklace instead. Might sound better. The sounds inside conches are trapped magics, not the sea, lol.

Hashut’s Blessing
Cool idea. It would have to be an arcane item though.
“High Priest Acolyte - 40 Points (Priest only) The priest is the acolyte of a great high-priest, and even though he has much left to learn, his magical abilities are far more potent than other priests. The priest is a level 3 wizard in all respects.” This is usually 50 points difference plus stats costs.

Hashut’s Blessing
Well an extra magic-level is usually 35pts. the 50pts upgrade is usually meant for upgrading combat characters to level 1 wizards, and thus making them scroll-caddies. This purpose is different though.
“Deep Scribe - 15 points The priest has spent centuries writing down records of the arts of magic. The priest knows one more spell than normal.” Consider upping this to 35 (probably 40) points and counting as a dispel scroll as well.

Hashut’s Blessing
A Spell Failiar is 15 points IIRC.
“Highly Resilient - 20 points The Priest is somehow able to take a lot more damage than his kin. The priest has an extra Wound.” This is usually closer to 50 points.

Hashut’s Blessing
Sure? That’s a lot of points for a wound. A 4+ ward save is usually around 30 points, and will usually work 50% of the time, statistically granting a hero-level model an extra wound. but 20 points is a bit cheap. Maybe 30.
Can thre Master Spellbindings be combined? So you could give a High Priest 2 and 3 for an extra 5 units? Maybe list them as Pirest only and High Priests can control 2 or even 3 units anyway?

Hashut’s Blessing
Obviously, you can’t take 2 different levels of master spellbinding on one hero. You can take multiples, but on different heroes.
“Coral Blade - 45 points” Maybe change the name slightly (like White coral or something to make it sound more special) and change the cost to 35 points or less.

Hashut’s Blessing
There’s a dark elf magic item from the old book at 45 points, that does the actual same thing.
“Spear of insanity - 20 points” trident would be better (ruleswise if not namewise). Thought of a cool name: Trident of Peril. Same rules (or new ones if you wish to include an extra item), but it makes them see their worst nightmares (casuing the stupidity).

Hashut’s Blessing
Sure. I can change that.
“All seeing pearl - 30 points This magical pearl allows its owner to see the unseen. The bearer counts as having unlimited line of sight for spellbinding purposes” Change this to His LoS for spellbinding purposes counts as the battlefield.

Hashut’s Blessing
Sure. I can change that.
“Glaive-staff - 10 points This magical staff is potent at casting spells, but also a deadly combat weapon. The Glaive-staff counts as a magical Great weapon.” I’d suggest halberd as that’s what a glaive is closest to and also make it a magic weapon instead.

Hashut’s Blessing
I think of it more like a beastman bray-staff, which is an arcane item IIRC.
Other things to note are capital letters and full-stops. Otherwise, it looks good to me! (I hope this doesn’t sound disheartening, it’s all meant constructively…)

Hashut’s Blessing
Yeah. It’s a WIP. I’ll give it a proper read for correction later on.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions though.

I have been thinking of changing the system, so that each priest may take only one power, but making it not count towards maximum magic item cost allowance. This would make it a whole lot better.

Thanks

- Kyte

4

Hashut’s Blessing:

remember that if a high priest controls more units and gets killed, the controlled units have a big chance of dying.

Kyte
Good point. Wasn't really taking that into account, I don't think...
Sorry, but I don't understand...

Kyte
You had them as Trench Guard and the second time as Trench-Guard.
fair enough. I could just write 'chariot base'

Kyte
Probably :D Maybe I should have said that :P Oh well :D
Fluff will be added later on. Along with special characters, more magic items and the lore of the sea. Cthulhu are squid-headed humanoids with a beard made of tentacles, and Dagons are just larger fishmen though.

Kyte
That's fine then. it was just a difficult image at first because I was thinking of a fish with T5 being a level 3 sorcerer at first :D I knew what Cthulhu was, but assumed the Dagons ;)
Thinking of how weak the priests are, the boost doesn't make them that much better. I could see it being too cheap for high-priests, who are descent fighters, so maybe make costs different or make it priest only?

Kyte
Maybe... I think it's probably best to be priest only and can't be combined with the level 3 thingy.
Cool idea. It would have to be an arcane item though.

Kyte
Whatever works ;)
Well an extra magic-level is usually 35pts. the 50pts upgrade is usually meant for upgrading combat characters to level 1 wizards, and thus making them scroll-caddies. This purpose is different though.

Kyte
With daemons (I think this is the old HoC book btw), they can buy level 1 at 35 (or 50, I can't recall) points, then 35pts for level 2 on top of that, 50 on top of that for 3 and 35 on top of that for level 4.
A Spell Failiar is 15 points IIRC.

Kyte
Yes, but I meant only up the points if you added that it counts as having a single dispel scroll as well.
Sure? That's a lot of points for a wound. A 4+ ward save is usually around 30 points, and will usually work 50% of the time, statistically granting a hero-level model an extra wound. but 20 points is a bit cheap. Maybe 30.

Kyte
Dwarf army book, 6th edition (and I believe 7th too), says 50pts for +1W (though I may be mistaken and it might be toughness instead, though I'm quite sure it's wound).
Obviously, you can't take 2 different levels of master spellbinding on one hero. You can take multiples, but on different heroes.

Kyte
I thought so, but I just wanted to check. Might be best to clear it up in the rules.
There's a dark elf magic item from the old book at 45 points, that does the actual same thing.

Kyte
In that case, keep it as is.
I think of it more like a beastman bray-staff, which is an arcane item IIRC.

Kyte
It is, however, it is more about the special spell it provides access to, then a magical weapon. it just hapens to count as a bray-staff as well. The more important part, I feel (due to its name), is that it should count as a halberd or have a different name to glaive. Also, it says it's potent at casting spells, so maybe up it to 50 points and have it as +1 to cast and counts as a halberd?
Yeah. It's a WIP. I'll give it a proper read for correction later on.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions though.

I have been thinking of changing the system, so that each priest may take only one power, but making it not count towards maximum magic item cost allowance. This would make it a whole lot better.

Kyte
I know, just thought it best to mention that. I'm glad they may have been of help. I like that Priests may only take one power (which would help with the spellbinding confusion I had), but maybe have High Priests able to take two (or more if you wished)? Also, as I said in my last post, I didn't take a close look at the stats etc: do many have a scaly skin save at all? I think maybe the Dagon characters should have 5+ and the normal troops (or the hardest troops) have a 6+ (the priests don't get any). Thoughts?
5

Kyte:

With daemons (I think this is the old HoC book btw), they can buy level 1 at 35 (or 50, I can't recall) points, then 35pts for level 2 on top of that, 50 on top of that for 3 and 35 on top of that for level 4.

Hashut's Blessing
Okay. I think 40 will be fine, as it won't be too expensive to be useful. Taking this power also disables the ability of master spell binding, as each priest can have only one power.
Dwarf army book, 6th edition (and I believe 7th too), says 50pts for +1W (though I may be mistaken and it might be toughness instead, though I'm quite sure it's wound).

Hashut's Blessing
Both are there, but remember how tough Dwarf characters are to kill. It takes a lot more afford to wound a T5 dude with a probable 1+ save and maybe a ward save. A wizard is about as easy to kill as most unit champions, so an extra wound is not too big of a boost.
It is, however, it is more about the special spell it provides access to, then a magical weapon. it just hapens to count as a bray-staff as well. The more important part, I feel (due to its name), is that it should count as a halberd or have a different name to glaive. Also, it says it's potent at casting spells, so maybe up it to 50 points and have it as +1 to cast and counts as a halberd?

Hashut's Blessing
It's more because the staffs that my sculpts are equiped with looks like great weapons. I just wanted a cheap magic item to represent this, and think og how nasty a Warbred High Priest with an extra wound on a Leviathan with a great weapon would be! Almost like a Tzeentch Dragon Lord!
know, just thought it best to mention that. I'm glad they may have been of help. I like that Priests may only take one power (which would help with the spellbinding confusion I had), but maybe have High Priests able to take two (or more if you wished)? Also, as I said in my last post, I didn't take a close look at the stats etc: do many have a scaly skin save at all? I think maybe the Dagon characters should have 5+ and the normal troops (or the hardest troops) have a 6+ (the priests don't get any). Thoughts?

Hashut's Blessing
High-Priests may take up to two powers, while priests may take only one.

All dagons have a scaly skin save (6+ for units, 5+ for characters)
Nothing else except for the Leviathan (3+) has such a save IIRC.

Thanks

- Kyte
6

Kyte:

I have edited some flaws now and added a few new powers/magic items as well as added the Lore of the Sea.

the big changes are these: Priests can only take one Power (2 for high priest) but they don’t count towards magic item allowance.

I fixed the deep one 3 wound mistake. Of course they should have only one wound.

Leviathan now has scaly skin (3+).

Behemoth crabs cause fear.

Other minor stuff such as point costs has been added/edited

http://www.filejumbo.com/Download/D02FCFDABC9F8CE9/

Thanks

- Kyte

7

Kyte:

Here’s a PDF for people having trouble opening the file:

http://www.filejumbo.com/Download/5A88321549445177/

Thanks

- Kyte

8

Hashut’s Blessing:

Okay. I think 40 will be fine, as it won't be too expensive to be useful. Taking this power also disables the ability of master spell binding, as each priest can have only one power.

Kyte
That is a good point about the spellbinding stuff. Problem solved.
Both are there, but remember how tough Dwarf characters are to kill. It takes a lot more afford to wound a T5 dude with a probable 1+ save and maybe a ward save. A wizard is about as easy to kill as most unit champions, so an extra wound is not too big of a boost.

Kyte
That's true, however, the wizards can cast magic and an extra wound can cause an extra turn of magic. Also, the High Priests can also claim this +1W and they're T5 etc too.
It's more because the staffs that my sculpts are equiped with looks like great weapons. I just wanted a cheap magic item to represent this, and think og how nasty a Warbred High Priest with an extra wound on a Leviathan with a great weapon would be! Almost like a Tzeentch Dragon Lord!

Kyte
Maybe change the name to Aethyr-staff or something, just glaives come under the rules of halberds in the rulebook and armybooks, so it'll avoid confusion. In other words, don't change the rules, just maybe edit the name, but it's entirely up to you at the end of the day.

Wrath of the Sea needs to be a 5+ casting value (as it is in other lores). The Call of Cthulhu looks fine, but I'm 50-50 as to whether it should be 5+ or 6+. Tidal Wave: mayhaps make it count as a flying move and cast on 8+, otherwise, fine as is (mayhaps 2d6"+4" if the move is entirely through water). Drowning on Land needs to be 10+ at least. Sink Obstacle could be 8+ or even possibly 7+. Sea Storm: remove the flaming attacks (maybe specify them as lightning attacks. Is it magical lightning or non-magical? I.E. Has he brought a storm from elsewhere over or has he made it himself?) and specify that you don't choose a new place for the marker, it is the artillery and scatter dice that move it. Also, if a misfire is rolled, the rain lightens (BP weapons can fire on a 5+) and no lightning this turn?

Make Dark Preacher only 20 points, up Highly Resilient to 40 points (taking into account what you said earlier, though I still think 45-50 is more suitbale
9

Kyte:

Here is the almost finished book. Still need somebody to do a nice cover. I’m thinking green priest with yellow eyes on black/white manta style skyray with a few Ray’ders behind him, and hordes of Deep Ones marching below with a few dagons in between them. All this could be in a beachy mangrove enviorment. Anybody up to the task?

Well here’s the file:

http://www.filejumbo.com/Download/A0A9B50C47E6010C/

I won’t change the #1 spell to 5+. Tzeentch has a better one that is 3 or 4+ IIRC, and this should be an army focusing mostly on magic, so a good base spell is nessecary.

Also, I need some more ideas for Special Characters, and a few more magic items wouldn’t hurt either.

Thanks

- Kyte

10

Hashut’s Blessing:

Just realised, the extra magic-level thing: the 50 points (opposed to the usual 35pts for +1 power die and an extra spell) is because it gives +1 dispel die when you go from Level 2 to 3. Just in case ya wanted to know.

As for the casting value, very good point. Sorry, I should’ve realised that. it’s the same sort of thing for Nurgle and Slaanesh too, I believe and they’re not even as magical as Tzeentch anyway :wink:

How about a combat character (maybe on lobster? or Leviathan?) in the centre of the ground troops?

I wish I could help you with that, but it does sound cool to me… Either have that or have them under the water? Nah, on a beach heading inland sounds better…

As for characters and items, I’ll have a think.

Some sort of seaweed related item could be useful… A shield that deals a S3/S2 hit back on the attacker with each succesful save or something?

As for special characters: what about a lobsterman? Similar in principle to a centaur/merman, but with a lobster body/tail/claws and fishman from the waist up.

I’ll keep thinking :wink: (Octopus guy? Special caster or combat character. Rare mutation of their kind or something, meaning it’s an oracle or something…)

11

Kyte:

Just realised, the extra magic-level thing: the 50 points (opposed to the usual 35pts for +1 power die and an extra spell) is because it gives +1 dispel die when you go from Level 2 to 3. Just in case ya wanted to know.

As for the casting value, very good point. Sorry, I should've realised that. it's the same sort of thing for Nurgle and Slaanesh too, I believe and they're not even as magical as Tzeentch anyway ;)

How about a combat character (maybe on lobster? or Leviathan?) in the centre of the ground troops?

I wish I could help you with that, but it does sound cool to me... Either have that or have them under the water? Nah, on a beach heading inland sounds better...

As for characters and items, I'll have a think.

Some sort of seaweed related item could be useful... A shield that deals a S3/S2 hit back on the attacker with each succesful save or something?

As for special characters: what about a lobsterman? Similar in principle to a centaur/merman, but with a lobster body/tail/claws and fishman from the waist up.

I'll keep thinking ;) (Octopus guy? Special caster or combat character. Rare mutation of their kind or something, meaning it's an oracle or something...)

Hashut's Blessing
A crabman would be cool. He could be the army general even though against the 'Aristocraty of the Deep' and make Behemoth Crabs a Core choice.

Maybe the octopus guy could be a medium size priest with a long bloated head like a squid and be carried around by deep one servants and scribes on a Clam throne?

I also got suggestions for an electric eel character with a template based electroshock attack.

So a fairly reasonable selection could be:

The sea monster mother which I already have (lord)

The eel guy (hero)

the Oracle (lord)

The crab guy (lord)

2 priests with an altar aiding spellcasting (2 heroes)

That's maybe enough.

Thanks

- Kyte
12

Hashut’s Blessing:

That’s all sounds good to me. Maybe include that the eel guy’s electric attack effects anything within the same water feature as him if he is in one…

Now it’s stats etc and magic items. Like I said before, I’ll have a think…

13

Kyte:

Here is a new list with a few more special characters and corrections.

I still need to add fluff for the thunderfish though, but basically he’s a rare breed of dagon, who’s an electric eel and not a normal predatory fish.

I also completely reworked the trident. it’s now more useful than before.

I am seriously thinking of giving the Dagons a “blood frenzy” special rule making them frenzied after causing one or more wounds, like sharks, who go crazy with the scent of blood, but I don’t know how it would work, or if it would be too powerful.

http://www.filejumbo.com/Download/74596EF4AC2F3EFC/

And please folks. You know me. I’m an honest person. it’s not a virus, but an ordinary word document.

14

enigma_rage:

I got bored one night and made this Army List into an Army Builder 2.2 file that can be down loaded here

http://www.enigmarage.weebly.com

Kyte you were given full credit for creating the file.

15

Kyte:

My God! That’s so awsome! Thanks a lot! The best christmas present I’ve had yet this year!

However, it doesn’t really work for me. I copy the file into the data folder, as the instructions on the website says, but armybuilder comes up with an error message and shuts itself down, when trying to load datafiles. it says:

Failed to load Datafiles for following reasons:

Augmentation Record does not have a valid record to augment.

type = [external]
id = [doalhit]

16

Kyte:

Ok. I got the file to work, but there seems to be some minor flaws. First of all, a Priest is 100 points, although Armybuilder states it as being worth 200.

Ray’ders are in army builder 12 points each, and unit size 10+, but are in reality 35 points each, and unit size 3+

Man O’ War seems to be worth 0 points, but should be 100.

Also, “Turtle Armour” seems to do nothing.

It’s really cool seeing these things in AB. I’d really like the changes to be fixed though.

Thanks a lot

- Kyte

17

Willmark:

I got bored one night and made this Army List into an Army Builder 2.2 file that can be down loaded here

http://www.enigmarage.weebly.com

Kyte you were given full credit for creating the file.

enigma_rage
Not bad, I never got around to my Araby list thou I have created a Nippon, Estalian and Norse one, all not to bad, when I get the time I have to host them on my site.
18

two_heads_talking:

man, I was hoping for pictures of models by now… bummer…:frowning: :frowning: :frowning:

19

Kyte:

man, I was hoping for pictures of models by now..  bummer..:( :( :(

two_heads_talking
Here you go:

Behemoth Crabs:



Cthulhu Priests:



Priest on SkyRay:


High Priest:


Dagon Greens:





More in my Army Blog in the apropriate forum...

Thanks

- Kyte
20

two_heads_talking:

sweet bald headed baby jeebus who lays in a bunch of hay crying like a baby… wow…