Zorgoth:
Assuming that the members of this forum have several ideas on who Hashut really is, I think we need a place were we can just sit and bicker like gnoblars about it.
My theory as to Hashut’s origin-
Going off of my idea that Hashut was a Bloodthirster Lord and personal armorer of Khorne, (it sounds better than the Be’ Lakor theory in my twisted mindset) , I believe he was corrupted by Tzeentch. That is the way the Changer works, so I see that as possible. Then when Khorne found out, he turned out the Father in Darkness and had his minions attempt to kill him.
From there the mutally accepeted story of Stunties finding him and so forth.
Xander:
I am not sure even that part at end is mutually accepted.
Interesting origin, however.
Snotling:
why khorne? only because of the symbol? it looks similar, but is quite different… “P” and “R” looks similar, too, but they have nothing to do with each other (okay… except the alphabet ^^). Hashut is quite mighty, but a deamon, a loyal “bodyguard”(you think, KHORNE needs a bodyguard? :)) with a strong character don’t agree to be corrupted by the enemy of his master… i think.
they are even deamons of the undivided choas, so why khorne? why not slaanesh? orgasmic flames, burns in pleasure… hihi, just kidding :hat off
metro_gnome:
i too like to think of hashut as undivided…
prolly cause i like khorne least of the chaos godz…
and thats the god we are linked to in any fluff on the matter… WHRP, Liber Chaoctica:Khorne, etc…
but Khorne for martial prowess…
Tzeench for introduction of Magic… to dwarves…
Nurgle for the refuse of industry… a disease upon the very land…
Slaanesh for the subjectaion of other races… bound and humiliated under Hasut…
Grimstonefire:
Whilst my own theories are in one of the other threads here, I would be very disappointed if we discovered they intend to make him linked to any of the existing Chaos Gods, or ‘undivided’ in general. To do so might mean CD only become part of a chaos book.
Also I think there is enough potential that they shouldn’t link them directly to any of the others. Or to make him some fallen daemon prince.
The best thing they can do IMO is to never detail the origins of Hashut directly. Sure put in a few super subtle bits in a book on him :), but never spell it out directly.
Snotling:
The best thing they can do IMO is to never detail the origins of Hashut directly. Sure put in a few super subtle bits in a book on him :), but never spell it out directly.
Grimstonefire
yep, that's good, nobody knows his origins, he is only... there :)
so nobody can complain about some (maybe senseless) fluff of this cool, burning god. :hat off
n00bLord:
He could just very well be a lesser choas god… 'Nuff said.
MuffinMan:
That just might WORK!
:hat off ~MM (Muffin Man:))
Revlid:
On Hashut as a Khornate Daemon:
No. Not officially.
There may be very particular traits that seem pretty specific to Hashut, but at the same time we can say with confidence that Hashut is very definitely a Chaos God, a ‘Daemon God’, and that he has an agenda that can only aid the Big Four in the long run, whether or not that is Hashut’s, or the Chaos Dwarves, actual intention.
*Although I seem to remember that in Liber Chaotica Khorne the author drew some correlation between Hashut and Khorne, although this was ‘in-character’ and part of the ravings of a mad priest who didn’t necessarily know any better…
MvS, author of the Liber Series
On who Hashut is/his birth:
He’s the god of Dark Industry; progress gone mad.
One of the things you must remember about Chaos is that it essentially mirrors humanity (and indeed the other sentient races), but the mirror caricatures, exaggerates and distorts everything. With the four major Chaotic powers this is fairly obvious, as they encompass spheres of emotion. To my mind there’s a ‘lesser tier’ of Chaos gods which are arguably more sophisticated: The Horned Rat and Hashut, they’re gods of sociological phenomenon and concepts civilisation has constructed. Now, I’m not suggesting that these factors don’t fall under the sway of the four, clearly they do but our demonic quartet are very much dominated by the core emotions that make up their beings.
But the Horned Rat and Hashut are gods of specific races you say? Not so. They are chaos gods, their influence is much less specific than that of say Esmeralda. The Horned Rat is the god of politicking, lies, power and selfishness. These traits are universal, and so all races feed him in some way. The Skaven are arguably the spawn of proto-Horned Rat and thusly typify all these things.
Races that Chaos has shaped are a critique on certain aspects of humanity.
Hashut is slightly more tricky. He must have existed in some form before the fall of a certain group of dwarfs. I think that proto-Hashut would have been an amalgamation of firstly logic’s uncaring a sinister edge, secondly the will to subjugate nature and further more to oppose one’s will over other things. I mean that in the broadest sense possible, its easy to see it when its manifest as the enslavement and subjugation of sentient creatures, but also such benign enterprises as agriculture; livestock were once wild beast that have been dominated and moulded by human will, so that they’re nothing more than tools and resources. Carving a sculpture: you’re destroying say a piece of marble, and imposing your own image of what it should look like.
Now, these concepts in themselves are probably not enough to attain true godhood, hence I termed this being proto-Hashut. The Chaos Dwarves acted as a catalyst. Dwarf personality has a great exaggeration of the traits I described in the above paragraph, Proto-Hashut had a natural affinity for them. Thus; their despair, sorrow and hope provided the spark of his ascension.
Rathgar, a demigod of fluff
Let’s look at Hashut. We know little or nothing about his genesis, so its possible and even probable that he may well have existed in some form or another before Dwarfs ever turned to Chaos. No-one is saying that every deity is created on spec and over night be any new group of mortals. What we could have, however, is an already existing god or independent daemon or whatever, who for whatever reason is attracted to the Dwarf mentality and the emotions Dwarfs have. This would mean that this god or daemon also has some traits to him that are part of the Dwarf psyche, and so he would be attractive or compelling in some way to some Dwarfs in particular circumstances.
He may have appeared to the Dwarfs as he is today, it doesn’t really matter. What matters is that the faith, expectations, purposes and emotions of the corrupted Dwarfs re-inforce all that make him up, and more than this, they help define his existence further. Perhaps Hashut is even more Chaos Dwarf-centric in his views and purposes now than he was when he was first dicovered by the Dwarfs. We don’t know, but it seems likely. But the process is symbiotic, as he comes closer to the Dwarfs, the Dwarfs come closer to him, one begins to define the other until we have a chicken-and-egg scenario.
There’s also the fact that Hashut has probably consumed more than a few Dwarf souls in his time, and so this would probably have had an effect on him as well.
MvS, author of the Liber series
Hashut seems to serve much the same purpose as the Horned Rat, in terms of motivation within the imagery. They both possess many different traits that are found in the Big Four, and I think therefore represent the general push of Chaos to overrun the mortal world through whatever means.
MvS, a third time
What happened is this: some dwarfs, through natural, sociological change, came to think that technological progress = good; so good, in fact, that it should be the only thing that the dwarfs should pursue. Screw the respect of your ancestors and all that; they’re not powering the excavator or the last technological marvel you invented. The numbers of these reformist dwarfs eventually grew to a point that when they found a focus for their belief that technology > *, that focus was empowered with godhood (this is a simplified, condensed, fast-forwarded version of what happened. As MvS said, these things don’t happen overnight). End result: Hashut.
aneutralshadeofblack
Huzzah!
Xander:
Some interesting view points, thanks for posting them!
Grimstonefire:
I still think that greed should be the focus. All the races in the world would feed him then, though dwarfs and chaos dwarfs more than most.
oboudd:
i think hashut is the daemon that came out of the rune gate.
Ishkur Cinderhat:
Oi Revlid, where are these quotes from? A forum?
Revlid:
Oi Revlid, where are these quotes from? A forum?
Ishkur Cinderhat
From Warseer Forum's Fantasy Background section, where some major theological debates have taken place. I've taken part in a few of them, but I'm no heavy-hitter. :)
MvS is (one of) the authors of the Libers Chaotica, and the author of Liber Necris.
Rathgar is just awesome at coming up with ideas that make wicked sense.
Aneutralshadeofblack is just generally cool.
Perturabo:
One thing has always confused me about Hashut, so maybe you guys can clear it up.
Coming of Chaos traps Dwarves underground
Dwarves discover Hashut
Dwarves worship Hashut
Is this how it occurred? If it is, and Hashut is a Chaos entity, what was it doing sealed behind a door underground before Chaos entered the world?
(I’m not very well read on Chaos Dwarf fluff, so this is probably a stupid question)
wallacer:
I’ve always thought of Hashut as being a kind of shorter version of Malal.
Basically, an undivided Chaos God who doesn’t really like the other Chaos Gods all that much.
AGPO:
IMO there are two angles to look at. Either Hashut is a lesser chaos god, below the great four in the same way as the Horned Rat. However, if you have grander aspirations for the CDs then another theory is that Hashut is actually the Great Beast, The Great Unnamed One, who is refered to very rarely as a theory of some WoWH theologians in GW fluff but is infact the God of Chaos Undivided, the great manifestation of evil of whom the “big four” are only aspects. This god is more or less warhammer’s equivelant of the Devil. You do need a fair knowledge of obscure fluff to recognise more current references to him though. In the same way that the Emperor in Rogue Trader is known to be the combined essence of every Shamen in the world, when the growing power of chaos meant that they could no longer re-incarnate and took a single, incredibly powerful body to survive. He has put in appearences over the ages as major spiritual figures and leaders, but only revealed his true nature to bring an end to the age of strife.
cornixt:
Hashut could be considered a chaos entity in the same way that all the other gods (including Elf gods) are chaos entities, although this is in itself only a theory (GW prefers to put forward a load of opinions of warhammer world inhabitants rather than actually clarifying it all, gives them more room to manoever in fluff). Officially, he has no origin or history before Chaos Dwarfs started worshipping him.
Perturabo:
However, if you have grander aspirations for the CDs then another theory is that Hashut is actually the Great Beast, The Great Unnamed One, who is refered to very rarely as a theory of some WoWH theologians in GW fluff but is infact the God of Chaos Undivided, the great manifestation of evil of whom the "big four" are only aspects.
AGPO
I feel this is going a bit far. I don't really think there is a god of Chaos Undivided. Undivided
is Chaos, which the gods then spring from. Hashut is most likely a minor Chaos deity, assuming someone can correct my earlier post.
AGPO:
I agree with Pertuarbo, but I just thought it would be an interesting angle to mention. After all, this is a concept GW have put in official fluff. Just something I thought I’d through into the melting pot