[Archive] Why Not? **This message was automatically appended because it was too short.**

Archive [Archive] Army Lists
1

Sleboda:

I’m not sure if this is the best place to post this, but since it’s about building a new army, I thought I’d try here first.

I just got an education on how awesome the new CD army is. I was dead without even taking my second turn and had only killed two wolf riders myself.

My opponent’s army had a bunch of stuff, but it seemed to me that the only stuff that mattered were the magma cannons, death rockets, and fire demon thingie.

I asked why he only took two magma cannons and he said that they are not cheap to buy or he would.

So, I’m building my list with maximums on the rockets, the cannons, and the fire demons. I can’t really see where anything else in the book matters.

That’s brings me to my post title- Why not?

Can the veterans here tell me why I shouldn’t do this?

Thanks!

-Joe

2

MLP:

Well, although they are the units that do the damage you do need other units like infernal guard and bull centaurs to hold units in place and stop the enemy getting your other weaker war machines and such.

But there’s certainly no reason why you can’t have an army with more of those models than most. It will be expensive though!

3

Sleboda:

I’m not sure if this is the best place to post this, but since it’s about building a new army, I thought I’d try here first.

I just got an education on how awesome the new CD army is. I was dead without even taking my second turn and had only killed two wolf riders myself.

My opponent’s army had a bunch of stuff, but it seemed to me that the only stuff that mattered were the magma cannons, death rockets, and fire demon thingie.

I asked why he only took two magma cannons and he said that they are not cheap to buy or he would.

So, I’m building my list with maximums on the rockets, the cannons, and the fire demons. I can’t really see where anything else in the book matters.

That’s brings me to my post title- Why not?

Can the veterans here tell me why I shouldn’t do this?

Thanks!

-Joe

4

tvandyke:

If you want a decent, strong core force here’s what I’d take at 2500 points:

Sorcerer Prophet plus magic items (Lore of Hashut is awesome, especially the spell Ash Storm since it can slow units up and makes them flammable which has great synergy with other spells in the Lore, Fire Lore on your other Daemonsmith and your war machines).

Castellen BSB plus magic items (makes a unit of Infernal Guard stubborn)

Daemonsmith plus dispel scroll (baby sits the war machines to give them re-rolls and with fire magic can cast long range spells)

625 points of core which is minimum (for me, I like to create 2 units of 24 with hw/shield. If you give the prophet the Crown of Command you can have two units that are stubborn)

1 Deathshrieker (cheap, versatile, very effective)

1 Magma Cannon

1 K’daii Destroyer (the fire daemon thing you were talking about)

You’ll probably be left with about 400 points. You could add a unit of Bull Centaurs or K’daii Fireborn (little fire daemons), a Hobgoblin Khan or two on wolf (cheap redirectors, war machine hunters, etc), an Iron Daemon, Hell Cannon or another of the war machines above. You could (although I’m still not convinced a good use of points) upgrade one of the Infernal Guard units to Fireglaives, GW’s or Blunderbuss or even add some Hobgoblin Infantry or Bowmen.

5

Sleboda:

Thanks for the advice so far.

Let’s say I’m building for 3000. That means 750 core has to be 'wasted.'

The Destroyers eat up 650 in rares, so that’s that spent.

The specials are 3 magma cannons, 3 rockets, and 3 units of 3 bulls. That’s another 1000ish.

The L4 wizard is another 300 and the smith is 100. That’s 400.

So, 400+1000+650 leaves just about 1000 to spend. I guess that means another war machine in the specials.

I really don’t think the core matters, so why not just fill it up with 4pt hobgoblins, flood the field, cluster around the war machines (so flyers and entombed units cannot appear there), and call it a day? Do all those other troops even matter with two Destroyers and a pile of war machines?

6

MLP:

Well at 3000 points you’ll be severely outnumbered in units and most likely be outmaneouvred, especially as the Destroyers are M9 frenzy they can get pulled out easily.

Filling up on hobgoblins in your core will not be good as they’ll just flee, animosity and panic eachother. Hobgoblins need Chaos Dwarfs to keep them in line.

You may also want a Daemonsmith or two to look after the war machines considering you’re wanting at least 6.

On a final note, an army with two destroyers, three magma cannons and three deathshriekers wont be considered a “nice” list. You may lose friends!

7

Jaakko:

I might add that a level 4 Sorcerer seems like a waste of points if his only job is to babysit warmachines (units will be out of range for his leadership most of the time and does the same job as a 95 point Daemonsmith could do).

8

Baggronor:

I really don't think the core matters, so why not just fill it up with 4pt hobgoblins, flood the field, cluster around the war machines (so flyers and entombed units cannot appear there), and call it a day? Do all those other troops even matter with two Destroyers and a pile of war machines?
Characters can't join Hobgoblins. So unless they want to get Doom-divered in the face or something similar, you want some Infernal Guard.
But regardless, it's a Chaos Dwarf army. The idea is that it includes some Chaos Dwarfs. :cheers
That's brings me to my post title- Why not?

Can the veterans here tell me why I shouldn't do this?
Personally, I think the answers are pretty self-evident.
1.) It'll be a really shit game for your opponent. You'll castle up and roll dice at him for 25mins while his army disintegrates and the survivors get double Destroyers in the face.
2.) Then he'll go on the internet and moan about it and CDs will get a bad rep and start getting banned again.
3.) And after 3 games with the list, you'll be bored.
4.) That is one expensive army, particularly considering it isn't fun to play with or against.

Having said which, it'll do horrific things to WEs, so it may be worth it just for that. :)
I just got an education on how awesome the new CD army is.
I think what you mean is '...how powerful the new CD war machines and Destroyer are'.
9

tvandyke:

Thanks for the advice so far.

Let's say I'm building for 3000.  That means 750 core has to be 'wasted.'

The Destroyers eat up 650 in rares, so that's that spent.
The specials are 3 magma cannons, 3 rockets, and 3 units of 3 bulls.  That's another 1000ish.
The L4 wizard is another 300 and the smith is 100.  That's 400.

So, 400+1000+650 leaves just about 1000 to spend.  I guess that means another war machine in the specials.

I really don't think the core matters, so why not just fill it up with 4pt hobgoblins, flood the field, cluster around the war machines (so flyers and entombed units cannot appear there), and call it a day?  Do all those other troops even matter with two Destroyers and a pile of war machines?

Sleboda
Here's the thing. There's no reason to "waste" those 750 core points. If you have to spend the points, you might as well maximize their potential and IMO, adding the Castellen BSB does that. The Castellen BSB can have up to 75 points of magic items, if you give him the Mask of the Furnance (+1 to Armor, 4+ Ward, 2+ Ward versus Flaming), and a GW, he comes in at 200 points. All of a sudden, your block of IG becomes stubborn and now you don't have to worry about rank bonus so much. This allows you to run in horde formation, or even in two ranks if you want to maximize shooting if you give them fireglaives. I just played in a two day tourney a couple of weeks ago and in all honesty, my two IG units only got into combat in 3 games and that was after turn 3. But they were needed to finish off the units that had been pummeled by the war machines and magic in turns 1-3. It does you no good to reduce a big ogre block from 12 models to 4 with your war machines if you don't finish off the unit since you'll get 0 victory points. Eventually, you'll need that core to engage and the last thing you want to happen is have a bad round of combat, break and lose not only the unit but your prophet along with it.
10

Sleboda:

On a final note, an army with two destroyers, three magma cannons and three deathshriekers wont be considered a "nice" list. You may lose friends!

MLP
=> True, but I have lots of friends and very, very (very!) few wins with my Tomb Kings, so I can afford to trade some for the other.  :)
1.) It'll be a really shit game for your opponent. You'll castle up and roll dice at him for 25mins while his army disintegrates and the survivors get double Destroyers in the face.

Baggronor
=> Yep!  Exactly.  That's what happened to me last night night, except he did it with only 1 Destroyer.  It was a very bad game, but I don't blame my opponent.  It's not his fault that he was able to identify the horrendously overpowered build options in the book. I mean, who sees the best stuff and then intentionally tries to do worse by not taking the best tools?
I think what you mean is '...how powerful the new CD war machines and Destroyer are'.
=> Indeed. That's sort of what lead my to my thoughts on the core spend being largely irrelevant.  (Though I do see the wisdom of tvandyke's post.)
I might add that a level 4 Sorcerer seems like a waste of points if his only job is to babysit warmachines (units will be out of range for his leadership most of the time and does the same job as a 95 point Daemonsmith could do).

Jaakko
=> I'm new to this, so I could have misunderstood something.  Bear with me.
Is the Lord wizard the only way to get the CD lore?  If so, I need him so that I can Ash Cloud anything that gets close, preventing it from charging.
Also, other than the Destroyers, everything will be clustered within his Ld range all game.  I have no intention of moving anything other than the Destroyers.
11

tvandyke:

Is the Lord wizard the only way to get the CD lore?  If so, I need him so that I can Ash Cloud anything that gets close, preventing it from charging.
Also, other than the Destroyers, everything will be clustered within his Ld range all game.  I have no intention of moving anything other than the Destroyers.

Sleboda
Yes, only the Prophet can take Lore of Hashut. It's not a very long range lore overall (although Flames of Azgorh is anywhere on the table), so you'll be putting him in your unit of IG most likely. A Daemonsmith is well suited to be deployed back with your war machines and like I said earlier, Fire Lore is great for a level 1 since you can throw 6 dice at the default "fireball" spell and get a 3D6 S4 hits up 48" away. Great to use on something like trolls or ogres that already has Ash Storm cast on them. The War Machine re-roll that the Daemonsmith provides is awesome, but I found that one daemonsmith can really only get within 3" of 3 war machines and really is better suited for two. So, if you have 4 or 5 war machines I'd run 2 daemonsmiths, especially at 3000 points. That re-roll really makes the Deathshriekers (especially the single S8 D6 wound shot) pretty damn accurate. You'll be amazed at how may "big" things get taken out by them. Of course, if you roll a misfire, the re-roll can save your war machine even if it doesn't hit anything. There's nothing worse than blowing up all your own war machines.
12

Baggronor:

I mean, who sees the best stuff and then intentionally tries to do worse by not taking the best tools?
People who play the game for reasons besides winning at any cost, usually fluff or visuals or both. There are a lot of them, me included. Doesn't mean I don't win, I have a fair few top 5 finishes, but winning at the cost of all my opponent's fun kinda undermines the whole point of the hobby for me, it's a 2 player game.
Anyway, you should know this, you play Tomb Kings - no one plays them to win ;P

Anyhow, I'd happily play your magma cannon convoy with my VCs. You do know the Destroyer doesn't have magical attacks, right? ;)
Is the Lord wizard the only way to get the CD lore?
Yes. I think he is well worth his massive points cost.
13

cornixt:


I mean, who sees the best stuff and then intentionally tries to do worse by not taking the best tools?


Sleboda
You want the game to be enjoyable. Winning every time is as bad as losing every time. The best battles are always when you fight tooth and nail to barely make it, not when your steamroller your opponent.
14

Time of Madness:


I mean, who sees the best stuff and then intentionally tries to do worse by not taking the best tools?

Sleboda
You do in my opinion. Your Tomb King list were always mixed and varied.

As with any list you can always do pretty well when taking the best units. For example Tomb King lists should always include archers, casket, warsphinxs and a High Priest. However, you still see people out there neglect to take some of these units to mix it up or to play with a different style.
Time of Madness
15

deadlydeceiver:

I started to write a longer text, but basically just want to ask you a single question:

Are you considering Chaos Dwarfs because your opponent smashed you by using them and you’re trying to do the same (or worse) to everyone else or because you like evil dwarfs with horns and big hats?

DD

16

tvandyke:


I mean, who sees the best stuff and then intentionally tries to do worse by not taking the best tools?

Sleboda
You do in my opinion. Your Tomb King list were always mixed and varied.

As with any list you can always do pretty well when taking the best units. For example Tomb King lists should always include archers, casket, warsphinxs and a High Priest. However, you still see people out there neglect to take some of these units to mix it up or to play with a different style.
Time of Madness


Time of Madness
Also, if you play in a lot of tournaments like I do, just winning games isn't enough to win the tournament.  You almost always have some sort of check-list or judge composition score, then your opponents have an after game checklist that scores your sportmanship and army comp.  Finally, you have an appearance score.  Typically, bringing a hard, but varied list where you're not obviously loading up on only the "good" things goes a long way towards decent scores in all catagories (even appearance since it gives you the opportunity to have more differently painted or converted stuff on the board).  I think you'd be better off taking an Iron Daemon and Destroyer instead of two Destroyers for example.  The Iron Daemon can be a little tricky, but it's still pretty powerful even if it's not as powerful as the Destroyer.  I think the army would look better and be percieved as nowhere near as OTT as two destroyers would.
17

nilbog:

So basically, you want to take a fairly standard 2000-2400 point list and increase it to 3000 points by adding more of the same thing? I think it’ll be really boring.

While the LoA list isn’t too varied, there are still a lot of things you can add - fireborn, ironsworn, dreadquake, iron daemons. Do you really want to take an army just because it’s got some excellent units? Why not take daemons instead with hordes of bloodletters, life loremaster etc?

18

snowblizz:

2.) Then he'll go on the internet and moan about it and CDs will get a bad rep and start getting banned again.

Baggronor
And that's exactly what Sleboda has in mind, IMNSHO. Since Composition and modifying rules are right out the only recourse is to ban this outright. Since it's not technically official GW rules it seems to be OK in the mind of Mr You Can't EVER Modify Any GW Rules.
I just got an education on how awesome the new CD army is.
I think what you mean is '...how powerful the new CD war machines and Destroyer are'.


Baggronor
I said much the same on TWF.
I can only conclude Sleboda is totally trolling us.
Also, if you play in a lot of tournaments like I do, just winning games isn't enough to win the tournament.  You almost always have some sort of check-list or judge composition score, then your opponents have an after game checklist that scores your sportmanship and army comp.  Finally, you have an appearance score. 

tvandyke
This is in no way a concern for Sleboda. He has the painting down, and the other stuff doesn't matter, because they aren't anywhere in the rulebook and thus has no relevance.
Do you really want to take an army just because it's got some excellent units?

nilbog
Yes, he is trying to prove a point of how bad it is to have things which aren't GW design studio Canon. IMNSHO.
19

Baggronor:

I can only conclude Sleboda is totally trolling us.
Well, I didn't want to be the one to say it, but yeah...
20

Sleboda:

I started to write a longer text, but basically just want to ask you a single question:
Are you considering Chaos Dwarfs because your opponent smashed you by using them and you're trying to do the same (or worse) to everyone else or because you like evil dwarfs with horns and big hats?

deadlydeceiver
=> It's (slightly) more complex than that.  I do happen to love the models.  I have scads of the older guys (including several of the guys that were made for the never-released CD expansion to Warhammer Quest, plus 6 unopened blisters of the Marauder dudes).  Dwarves are a joy to paint.  Evil ones are even better!

The first part about getting crushed and wanting to crush in return is sort of true.  I am really gosh darned sick of losing with my TK.  I've never had a win/loss record this bad with any army ever in the past. Ever.  After getting humbled worse than pretty much any game I've ever played the other night, I thought "Well, here's an army I can build to help me get the taste of losing out of my mouth."

So, it's not about wanting to crush other people, it's about wanting to get some nice wins for a change.

I've never seen Warhammer as a way to beat others.  I've seen it as a way to do well for myself. The clinical result (win/loss) is the same, I know, bu the intent is quite different.

@folks above-
It's not meant to be trolling. I apologize if it is that way. Sure, I am ranting in various places about how I can't believe this army list is official and in use, but that doesn't mean I won't use it! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?
Also, snowblizz touched on something worth commenting on-
I do know that tournament require more than wins in many cases (though I wish they didn't since they are tournaments after all, but that's another story), but like he says, I do tend to score very well for painting, so I get lots of points there. Plus, no matter what lists I use, I actually generally wind up in the top quarter (usually higher - even first place more than once) for sportsmanship. As I've been told my many players, internet Joe and real life Joe are different beasts. :)

So, yeah, I still feel like I can do well enough with the 'other stuff' to make up for any dings for unit selection.