[Archive] Your suggestions on how to improve/balance LoA

Admiral:

Forgeworld’s Legion of Azgorh (LoA) list is widely accepted at tournaments and offers players a chance to build a small elite army with wacky warmachines, Hobgobbo rabble and fire daemons.

However, not unlike ordinary army books, it have some inherent balance issues, or flaws even. FW did a good enough job on LoA in my opinion, but there is always space for improvement.

Let’s imagine that the next Warhammer Forge book, however late in coming it might be, will include an updated LoA list.

Also imagine that your suggestions on how to improve the army list (eg. raise the K’daai Destroyer points cost to XXX, lower points cost for blunderbusses to X) will be heard if they’re sound enough.

What would you change to improve LoA? The aim is to create create a balanced list, not an overpowered one.

timurbannipal:

Although it’s not as straight as transferring over point cost, I think the Dwarf book will really help. There are differences between vamps and TKs (one of them is good, the other the worst book of 8th) there are still points of reference. So, great thread, looking forward to seeing what ideas the community have, but I’m gonna wait till next week before weighing in on this. :hat off

Grimbold Blackhammer:

If there is another book ever written in our life times, I don’t think we could intelligently speculate on what it could contain other than to say ‘it will contain Dwarfs and war machines in it’. Will the book be written by Forge World again? Will we still only have 8 magic items per book? Will the author be a known collector and player of Chaos Dwarfs or just someone assigned to the project? What will the current Dwarf army book have in it that they’ll have to copy or not copy? I think there are far to many unknowns at this point and time.

Heavygear:

Actually I don’t think the rules are unbalanced… Tournament organizers around here have said as much and many tournament players I have talked to don’t find Chaos Dwarfs at all scary. There is just a ridiculous stigma surrounding anything Forge World because it was not “tournament Legal” for years. There are still players at my FLGS who think I need their special permission to play chaos dwarfs. I don’t think Forge World stuff is any more broken than anything else you see from GW.

We have one killer spell in Hashut, everything else is similar to spells found in the standard lores. We suffer more from dispels than other races and our only Lord option is a high priced magic user.

We have some of the most expensive core in the game. Which are really no better than most armies special and rare choices at similar or higher points values.

The Kdaai are big and scary and hard to wound but they are balanced by the fact that they can burn themselves out and when faced by a unit or single model with the 2+ flaming ward save, they are easily stuck in the tar pit. Once people learn you don’t just throw cannon balls at it, it is manageable. The Ogre Stone horn is also quite resilient and no one cries cheese.

Our large cavalry is not nearly as bad as say Demi chickens and Crushers.

The magma cannon is scary but the dwarf flame cannon is now quite similar at a similar points cost.

The gyrobomber ordinance is similar to the deathshrieker rocket and much more mobile.

Blunderbusses have been trumped by Iron Drakes. With all of the multi wound Dwarfs can now put out, the last thing an Ogre and Chaos player wants to see on the other side of the table is a Dwarf army.

Admiral:

@ Heavygear: Good points, but does this moderate or even relatively meagre power of the army warrant some points-lowerings in order to not make some equipment or units overpriced?

I’ve no good idea of what units should cost, but I’m sure others would be able to come up with a good estimate of, say, a K’daai Destroyer’s true points value (which likely would be higher than it costs currently).

If there is another book ever written in our life times, I don’t think we could intelligently speculate on what it could contain other than to say ‘it will contain Dwarfs and war machines in it’.  Will the book be written by Forge World again?  Will we still only have 8 magic items per book?  Will the author be a known collector and player of Chaos Dwarfs or just someone assigned to the project?  What will the current Dwarf army book have in it that they’ll have to copy or not copy?  I think there are far to many unknowns at this point and time.

Grimbold Blackhammer
Of course, but let’s assume the next list is merely an update of the LoA list, likely with added goodies which we anyway can’t count in this equation because they’re unknown.

As such, what would you change in the current LoA list if it was to be given an update (even a meagre rules one), in order to improve it? What warts does the army list have to shrink back?

Part of this thread’s purpose is to possibly give FW some helpful pointers. We know FW people are incredibly skilled sculptors and story writers, but they are not necessarily the most hardened rules wranglers, as is evident in some places in Tamurkhan. If the community can come up with useful feedback, then maybe they’ll have some use for it.

Heavygear:

I would start by reducing the cost of Blunderbusses to 15 points.

Infernal guard I think are priced OK considering the STR4 stat and the Blackshard and the fact that our only other infantry choice is hobgoblins which should probably cost a point or two more, maybe.

Hobgoblins were priced in line with Marauders when the book was released. The leadership stat and squabble rule are very real handicaps. FW really threw us a bone with them because it is hard to field a playable list at 2000pts with just one big block of infantry.

Again I don’t really have a problem with the Kdaii at its current points. It is really the only Daemon we have in the list, it is meant to be nasty.

The Chalice is what gets the most gripes but compared to the Book of Hoeth it isn’t really all that. I find that people who rely too heavily on magic are the ones that gripe. They also believe it shouldn’t be used rules as written, but that is because they haven’t read the FAQ where FW clearly states that yes it is a kick in the Nids and we meant it to be. Chaos Dwarfs do not play nice.

So make it cost 75 to 100 points instead of the Daemon Flask which should be like 50 points.

After seeing the new dwarf book I have to say FW priced the Magma Cannon and DS Rocket just fine.

The Dreadquake is a bit overpriced in my opinion but I understand. The ability to rob your opponent of movement without taking a hit is quite powerful for an army of M3 midgets. The three extra wounds balances out the necessity to take a Ogre so you can reliably shoot the thing every turn. You also have the potential for this thing to blow up more often than our other warmachines. I would drop the price 25 to 50 points.

Giants- ridiculously overpriced and not necessary in a list where you have daemons.

Kdaii fireborn - our medium infantry isn’t really worth the points because they are going to burn out faster than you can use them. They really aren’t too good vs. anything with armor. I’d rather have the ability to take slave Ogres and if the next addition allows allies, that is just what I will do.

I would drop the dark forged weapon from the SP and lower the points cost on this guy. The random affect thing just kind of annoys me and I would rather just choose a weapon for him.

We are Chaos Dwarfs not Dwarfs so a Sorcerer Prophet is the appropriate fluffy choice for a Lord. Would I rather have a tanked up Dwarf King capable of slaying monsters all alone? You bet I would, but then I would be playing vanilla dwarfs.

cornixt:

I wrote the following a long time ago. I hadn’t played any games with the list, and I hadn’t finished writing this thing either. I present this merely as what I was thinking at the time, and the fact that I never posted/finished it probably shows how much confidence I had in it.

How to improve LoA

This clearly assumes that LoA is in need of a bit of adjustment and that we should find out how to do those adjustments. I know a few people will disagree but I don’t want the thread bogged down too much in whether this thread is worthwhile.

The main aim needs to be that the list should be considered as a whole, as well as making sure each part can perform a role for a fair price. There are two approaches - micro-analysis of each unit, or more sweeping simple changes in the key areas.

First Draft - Simple Changes

The main complaint is that the Core is too costly and the war machines too cheap. Pretty much every army list has two units of 25-30 IG and possibly some HGs, no other infantry. But overall it is apparently quite well balanced overall and just needs some internal balance.

Core units all -1pt/model each, IG -1pt for each weapon option

Magma Cannon +15pts

Death Shrieker +10pts

Iron Daemon rules overhaul to clear up ambiguous rules and make it less likely to be held up by weak minor units

Destroyer wounding modifier, maybe make it slightly weaker?

This should make an infantry-based army a much better proposition, saving around 50-100pts overall depending on the number of units, equipment choices, and size. An army heavy on war machines would cost an extra 40pts or so.

Second Draft - Simple Changes

Infernal Guard -1pt for each weapon option

Magma Cannon +10pts

Iron Daemon rules overhaul

Destroyer -1 Wound

The Magma Cannon and Destroyer are what opponents complain about the most. Hobgoblins aren’t really all that expensive in context, but IG pile on the points with any upgrade.

I started this as a way of seeing if we could work out the little issues with LoA and end up with a more flexible list that is still balanced. I ended up with the realisation

HGs have the stats of goblins, but pay an extra point for the throwing knives, +1 WS, the backstabbers rule, don’t fear elves, but also have worse animosity. Maybe they aren’t as similar as they first seem! Less obviously, HGs have the benefit of high leadership generals, so a big unit can benefit from being Steadfast and hold the line significantly more cheaply than the other CD units. So while they might not be a bargain, they aren’t exactly a ripoff either. If they were 3 points and had the option of light armour for +1/2 pt, they would feel much better, even if that really only adds up to 20 fewer points in a 40-model unit if you don’t take the light armour option.

Iron Daemon rules overhaul - chariot, replace Thunderstomp with D6 hits on turns it doesn’t charge, few other small changes.

Skink:

Interesting posts! My thoughts:

-Infernal Guards are good the way they are, fluffy and reasonably costed (I like the way they synergy with Hobgoblins, and let’s not forget they have a 3+AS). I 'd make weapon upgrades more affordable.

-Magma and Deathshrieker need to have their point cost adjusted like it has already been said.

-Iron Daemon: Give it a base size, make easier rules, eliminate Thunderstomp or make it able to Thunderstomp everything.

-K’daai: Fine. The Destroyer maybe needs to be nerfed a tad.

-Taur’ruk: I want to be able to have one even if Bull Centaurs aren’t present. And he should be able to carry the Battle Standard.

-Infernal Ironsworn: …Seriously?

-Chalice: Needs to be used just at the beginning of the Magic phase. Otherwise is a very annoying item, one of those that make a game not fun for your opponent (IMHO).

-It would be lovely to see a fighty Lord level character, Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers, and Chaos Dwarf Warriors back into the fray.

Yodrin:

IG has 3+ save against shooting and 4+ in CC:)

thewizardofoz:

IG has 3+ save against shooting and 4+ in CC:)

Yodrin
Unless you are running them with HW and Shield or armed with Blunderbusses as I do, which then gives the 3+ Vs shooting, 3+ in CC and a 6++Parry.

I too would like to see Hobgoblin Bolt throwers, Tarauks being able to carry Battle Standard, A stronger Cannon - Strength 10 Cannonball but fluffed up so maybe it comes out of a Daemons rear or something and smething done to Jazz up the Ironsworn - Stubbron, Magical attacks, 3 attacks each, 5+ ward saves and 2+ armour, fear causing - make too good not to have which means more people running combat lists.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I’ve given this thread a lot more thought than it deserves since the outcome will not affect anything.  But aside from the extremely obvious need to reduce point costs on anything with the word “infernal” in it, I would…
-  get rid of -1 flee & pursuit special rules (if Dwarfs don’t have them, neither should we)
-  give only CD models Hatred (we hate everybody equally!)
-  bring back Sneaky Gits because they are both fluffy and awesome!
-  add in the “where there’s a whip, there’s a way” rule to hobgoblins & update their Animosity rules
-  bring back Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers
-  completely re-vamp the Sorcerer-Prophet (only Greater Demons characters are more expensive) and add in a fighty lord
-  add in a lord-level Bull Centaur character and allow the hero to take the role of BSB
-  make a Flame Cannon 10 points more expensive
-  give Infernal Ironsworn Stubborn and change their Ensorcelled Weapons from being magical weapons to just giving magical attacks.  That would allow them to parry.
-  change the Iron Deamon random movement 2D6 because its rules now are a complete disaster.  Also allow it to be a mount for a wizard.
-  fix the wording on the Chalice so it’s no longer broken
-  actually the list of items to fix is pretty long.  Suffice to say a lot of items need to be fixed
-  remove the restriction of only 1 magical banner in the army (on anything “infernal”)

Things I would not do…
- we can’t change the K’daii Destroyer.  It’s rules are already in the Storm of Magic suppliment
- bring back orcs.  We’re already fielding Chaos Dwarf armies that are almost devoid of Dwarfs.  Let’s not add to the problem.
-  give us a cannon option.  I like that we don’t have one.

TheFNG:

-  give Infernal Ironsworn Stubborn and change their Ensorcelled Weapons from being magical weapons to just giving magical attacks.  That would allow them to parry.

Grimbold Blackhammer
Tamurkhan says they do get a parry save.

I think the point reductions to IG and II would be enough. That and give the II Stubborn.

Love the Taur'ruk BSB idea. Good thinking on that.

Yodrin:

IG has 3+ save against shooting and 4+ in CC:)

Yodrin
Unless you are running them with HW and Shield or armed with Blunderbusses as I do, which then gives the 3+ Vs shooting, 3+ in CC and a 6++Parry.


thewizardofoz
Yes you are correct:). I always go GW;)

Btw, I would have loved to see a real fighting lord and BC BSB. And....take a Taur'ruk without the BC.

Bloodbeard:

I would like to see:

-  give Infernal Ironsworn Stubborn and change their Ensorcelled Weapons from being magical weapons to just giving magical attacks.  That would allow them to parry.

Grimbold Blackhammer
The stats that enscorlled handweapon can be used to achieve a parry save, as a normal hand weapon.

Things we need

1. Cheaper blunderbuss, cut the price by 1 point.

2. I the Taur’ruk could carry the BSB. It’s a nice idea. But all armies only have 1 “captain” choice that can carry the BSB. If I had to choose, I what like the BSB to stay with the castellan.

3. A cheaper sorcerer prophet. All armies should be able to field a lord at 1000 points. Just take away his darkforged weapon or something like that.

4. Let the daemonsmith have acces to the Lore of Hashut. Can’t really see any reason for the lore to be limited to the battle magic ones.

5. I would like some more magic items to choose from - especially banners. I mainly tool up my heroes/lords with rulebook stuff.

6. Better bullcentaurs or bullcentaurs on 40mm bases.

7. A fighty lord. Like a Darker Castellan. Equal to dwarf lord.

Things i don’t think we need

Bolt throwers or cannons. We have enough wacky machines. Having access to a cheap boltthrower would be too hardcore.

No orcs!

No bull centaur lord.

Things I wouldn’t change

Make the challice cost 55 points. I don’t think it’s too tough as it is. But I do think only lords should be able to have it. Like the Book of Hoeth.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

2. I the Taur'ruk could carry the BSB. It's a nice idea. But all armies only have 1 "captain" choice that can carry the BSB. If I had to choose, I what like the BSB to stay with the castellan.

Bloodbeard
I think that is an incorrect statement. Dark Elves have two choices. As do Lizardmen and Orcs & Goblins. There may be others I'm not thinking of.. Also most other races have the option to mount their BSB in some fashion for better protection as well as maneuverability. So while we have no hero mounts, this could help fulfill that role. I'd say the addition of a Taur'ruk option makes more sense than less.

I do agree the Chalice should be 55 points but only if a Lord-level non-caster character option is provided.

furrie:

2. I the Taur'ruk could carry the BSB. It's a nice idea. But all armies only have 1 "captain" choice that can carry the BSB. If I had to choose, I what like the BSB to stay with the castellan.

Bloodbeard
I think that is an incorrect statement.  Dark Elves have two choices.  As do Lizardmen and Orcs & Goblins.  There may be others I'm not thinking of..  Also most other races have the option to mount their BSB in some fashion for better protection as well as maneuverability.  So while we have no hero mounts, this could help fulfill that role.  I'd say the addition of a Taur'ruk option makes more sense than less.

I do agree the Chalice should be 55 points but only if a Lord-level non-caster character option is provided.


Grimbold Blackhammer
orcs & goblins have at least 3(mabey even 4) different chars that can be a bsb. You have the goblin big boss, the night goblin big boss and atleast the normal orcs big boss and mabey even the black orcs big boss.

Admiral:

I've given this thread a lot more thought than it deserves since the outcome will not affect anything.

Grimbold Blackhammer
That's not entirely true. Even if FW would be unlikely to make much use of the feedback (or would they? - we'll see), the simpler and best suggestions will be useful for houseruling games at home where you've all agreed on a few changes to bring things more in line.

Otherwise, good reasoning, all.

Odatria:

Would anyone else like to see Wolf Raiders moved out of Rare? I can’t help but feel they’d get more use if they were in Special where there is 50% points allowance instead of only 25% which is already highly contested by the destroyer, dreadquake and hellcannon. To be honest though fluff aside I don’t see why they aren’t Core, other armies get their chaff and cheap fast cavalry in Core, I can’t think of any other army which has to use the rare allowance to get it. Having perhaps Wolf Raiders in special and some sort of Wolf Chariot in rare, or the return of bolt thrower in rare, would give a Hobgoblin unit in every section (apart from Lords).

I’d also consider dropping Ironsworn and moving the Infernal Guard to special, and put in a more basic Chaos Dwarf Warriors unit as core, with say HwS, AHW and GW as weapon options and Heavy Armour, while the Special type get Ensorcelled HW or Halberds. The ranged unit could then be a separate unit type fielding either Core or Special, running Fireglaives basic with the upgrade option to BB.

deadlydeceiver:

Haha, I hate those threads, as I can’t stop thinking about them :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
Here’re my ideas (many inspired by what I’ve read here on the forum) for an internal balance of the list that makes everything a worthwhile option:

Resolute = Dwarfs
Sorcere’s Curse = always adding +1T

LORDS
Sorcerer-Prophet: bit cheaper
Make the DF-Weapon an option for ~20 points
- have 3: Eternal Hatred affect the mount aswell
- allow wardsaves against the self inflicted harm by a possessed weapon
Bale Taurus: 205 points and keeps Fuelled By Fire
Lammasu: points like in SoM, Upgrades allowed
Great Taurus: as it is, Upgrades officially allowed
A killy lord maybe a Tyrant with a possible Bullcentaur upgrade/ or just an additional BC Lord choice
Drazhoath: Loremaster, “choose your power”-DF-weapon, 4+ WS and prevent K’Daai from burning out, Crucible and profile as it is, increased point cost

[/u]Daemonsmith: access to Lore of Hashut
Tau’ruk: available without regular BCs, can be BSB
Castellan: alright
Khan: alright

[/u]IG: all weapon options 1 point cheaper, make shields an option for +1 point, reducing “naked” IG by 1 point
HG: LA and throwing knifes being options for 1/2 point each, reducing the naked HGs by 1 point

[/u]Ironworn: Stubborn and 2A, probably +1 point
K’Daai: 3 Attacks
Bullcentaurs: 3 Attacks, they come with shields, options cheaper, base cost higher
Magma Cannon: + 15 points
Deathshrieker: maybe a tiny bit more expensive
Iron Deamon: fix movement (as stated f.ex. chariot), allow war machines that get moved by carriage hauler to fire!!!, allow [/u] the skullcracker to thunderstomp everything

[/u]Destroyer: reduce the M to 7
Dreadquake: points including the Ogre < Hellcannon OR D6 wounds under the whole template OR 5" template :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: (just kidding)
Wolf Raiders: move to special, but add a 0-2 restriction
Siege Giant: no idea x.x

[/u]
Breath of Hatred → Eternal Hatred
Burning Wrath → increased range or D3 wounds
Dark Subjogation → reduction without test
Curse → alright!
Ashstorm → make it “Choose two of the following” and give it a increased casting value (~15+) that triggers all
Hell Hammer → automatic hit, no I-Test
Flames → reduce to D3 wounds, T-test replaces hit for model under the hole

Baggronor:

I would say:

Make Resolute the same as Dwarfs or, better yet, give us something else cool.

Chaos Dwarfs should Hate and be Hated by Dwarfs. They should also cause Fear in OnG. They know these Dwarfs are wrong ‘uns.

Add fighting Lord option - Banelord; option to ride a Taurus/Bale Taurus.

Sorcerer Prophet: Reduce to 190pts. Drop pointless random-effect weapon. Give Lamassu 5 Wounds and 4+ armour.

Taur’uk: Allow him to be the BSB.

Khan: Wolf should grant Fast Cav regardless of whether he has a shield or not.

Daemonsmith: Nerf his re-rolls to be like the Dwarf Master Engineer, but Daemonsmith rule should allow nearby Hellcannons to re-roll failed Rampage rolls. Allow him to take Lore of Hashut.

Castellan: Lose Stubborn, Ld10 like Dwarf Thanes. Reduce to 65pts.

Infernal Guard: 11pts with no Shields. 2pts for great weapons, 1pt for Shields, 3pts for BBs, 3pts for Fireglaives.

Hobgoblins: Fine.

Ironsworn: 14pts each, Stubborn.

Fireborn: 3W. Same cost.

Bull Centaurs: Make them Str5, T4 and 4 Attacks. 60ish pts. Maybe add impact hits.

Magma Cannon: See Flame Cannon.

Deathshrieker: Increase to 120pts.

Iron Daemon: Grant it similar rules and stats to the STank. Similar points cost. Skullcracker would do extra grind and have armour-piercing.

Hellcannon: Fine

Dreadquake: Str 4 (10) Pieplate. Quake effect would be a 2D6" radius from the hole, stop Marching and cause Dangerous Terrain tests. -1 to Hit if moving and shooting within the Quake zone.

Destroyer: Drop his Movement to 6, give him Magical Attacks.

Siege Giant: Why is this guy even here? Reduce to 175pts or remove entirely. He isn’t even particularly fluffy.

Wolf Raiders: Make Special. Add Thommy’ Hs ‘Late Again!’ rule.

Black Orcs. Bring them back. It was one of the best bits of CD fluff.