Chaos Dwarfs, not Legion of ... Something

[MiSiO]

Had a game against Dwarfs this weekend. First round in a tournament we play with my group (14 players). 1750. I have lost… 2 hobgoblins and tabled Dwarfs with just 3 units… ID rolled two “1” in a raw so was a bit late to the party and BO and IG with small cutthroat support (10) joined the battle turn 4 when it was all over (20 clansmen surrounded by 2 flying monsters and 40 CT block with khan)…

Man this game can be nasty.

We have played flank attack.

P.S.
I have forgotten to pack by BO unit so I had to use a proxy “paper” unit

[MiSiO]

This is a list I have used in a previous post.

++ Characters [875 pts] ++
Sorcerer-Prophet [445 pts]
(Darkforged weapon, Heavy armour, Level 4 Wizard, General, Bale Taurus, Talisman of Protection, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Daemonology)

Black Orc Warboss [349 pts]
(Great weapon, Full plate armour, Wyvern, Trollhide Trousers, Effigy Of Mork, Charmed Shield)

Hobgoblin Khan [81 pts]
(Hand weapon, Throwing weapons, Great weapon, Shortbow (instead Throwing weapons), On foot, Ruby Ring of Ruin)

++ Core Units [599 pts] ++
15 Black Orc Mob [266 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Stubborn, Veteran, 8x Shields, 15x Great weapon, Boss, Standard bearer, Musician)

10 Infernal Guard [160 pts]
(Fireglaives, Heavy armour, Drilled (0-1 per 1000 points))

10 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [30 pts]
(Hand weapons, Shortbow)

42 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [143 pts]
(Hand weapons, Shortbow, Boss (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Special Units [275 pts] ++
Iron Daemon [275 pts]
(Steam Cannonade, Hand weapons)

---

Created with “Old World Builder”

I am thinking about a small tweaks.

Not sure IF I should replace 40 cutthroat unit for something else like 2 balista. 1 Deathshreiker is not enough either. I know I will cut 3 hobgoblins and give IG shields.

Things I like about the list is it is punchy and fast. I was not super happy with Ruby Ring last game as my horde was fighting from turn 2 BUT I might not get FLY(12) spell the next game. Khan would be great on a wolf but really the core is strong. 2 heores, black orcs, chaff and ID.

Any suggestions how to tweak it?

I will most likely play EXILES.

[Vacationist]

Yeah wolf Khan with the ring is the way to go. Insanely good for his cost.

I’m not sold on the block of hobo bows, tbh.

No shields in IG is taking away one of their greatest strengths in shieldwall, but then again, most opponents tend to ignore them until the last possible monent

Your flying guys are ace (literally?).

The exiles have a crazy magic weapon in the axe of the frontiers, forget what it does, but a Lamassu might put a wrench in that

Besides that, they have (the best in game?) cannons, so meteoric armour is a good investment.

Peg knights are terrible - for us (I think they have them too). Nothing much to do about them. Maybe shoot them? There might be merit in taking the daemonology magic missile against them

[MiSiO]

@Vacationist

Yeah wolf Khan with the ring is the way to go. Insanely good for his cost.

I just caped hero points lol And there is nothing I really should cut for wolf.

@Vacationist

I’m not sold on the block of hobo bows, tbh.

Question is how to replace them! I could take 10 cutthroats and 5-6 wolfriders instead. Still Cuuthroats provide solid +4 combat res and when they fly with a wyvern… I win combats by 10+

@Vacationist

Your flying guys are ace (literally?).

The exiles have a crazy magic weapon in the axe of the frontiers, forget what it does, but a Lamassu might put a wrench in that

+2ST, -3AP, 2 handed, magical, MW(2) and I have seen their list from previous round - it is there I could aim for that counter but Bale is more versatile in this list.

@Vacationist

Besides that, they have (the best in game?) cannons, so meteoric armour is a good investment.

Still not 3 like Empire but 1.

I can screen with cutthroats/shieldwall and then counter with flyers and BO? I like the idea of taking several wolves instead of 20ish cutthroats.

[MrMelons]

Standard and Musician for the Goblins seems mostly redundant as they will most likely lose any melee engagement with anything other than peasants due to wounds. My last game I tied up pegasus knights for two rounds with 2 groups of 10 , one took the charge so my lord could get in there. Maybe have 5 units of 10? The enemy must waste more time take taking out the 5 units than they would have to spend taking out just one.

[MiSiO]

Cool idea! I did something similar but with wolves (no Ring) BUT I like the idea of taking more units of 10. How You avoid panic tests and situation when pegasus knighs ovverrun into something else?

++ Characters [860 pts] ++
Sorcerer-Prophet [445 pts]
(Darkforged weapon, Heavy armour, Level 4 Wizard, General, Bale Taurus, Talisman of Protection, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Daemonology)

Black Orc Warboss [354 pts]
(Great weapon, Full plate armour, Wyvern, Trollhide Trousers, Effigy Of Mork, Enchanted Shield)

Hobgoblin Khan [61 pts]
(Hand weapon, Throwing weapons, Great weapon, Shortbow (instead Throwing weapons), Giant Wolf)

++ Core Units [488 pts] ++
10 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [30 pts]
(Hand weapons, Shortbow)

10 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [30 pts]
(Hand weapons, Shortbows)

10 Infernal Guard [170 pts]
(Fireglaives, Heavy armour, Shield, Drilled (0-1 per 1000 points))

15 Black Orc Mob [258 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Stubborn, Veteran, 8x Shields, 11x Great weapon, Boss, Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Special Units [310 pts] ++
Iron Daemon [310 pts]
(Steam Cannonade, Hand weapons, Hellbound)

++ Rare Units [92 pts] ++
6 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders [92 pts]
(Hand weapons, Cavalry spears, Light armour, Shields, Shortbow, Reserve Move (0-1 per 1000 points), Boss (champion))

---

Created with “Old World Builder”

[https://old-world-builder.com]

[MiSiO]

@Vacationist

Peg knights are terrible - for us (I think they have them too). Nothing much to do about them. Maybe shoot them? There might be merit in taking the daemonology magic missile against them

I was thinking HOW to find space for Ruby Ring…

[MrMelons]

Do you know what I think I actually forgot about that last game lmao, you could always take the overseers sigil as a banner and do some clever positioning or babysit with your Lord but that might not work out.

As for how it played out in my game we were on a very small table and I used the terrain to funnel them as much as possible. My whole strategy with this was to lure his lord and pegasi into the middle and destroy them as a priority but he ran circles around me.

I also remembered that rank bonus gives combat res by I think really that bows especially will take a lot of wounds, enough to outdo the bonus from rank and especially banner and musician.

With bretonnia you want to stop the charges if you don’t want a face full of S6 A2 AP-2 lances. I think using them as a stop gap is definetly viable if you can get around the routing problem.

Interestingly if you make them small enough and the enemy does enough damage, they might get wiped entirely, which ironically fixes the problem of being fled through. Maybe you could set up a unit of sacrifices, deliberately flee with them, and get the enemy in a position you want them to be in?

[MiSiO]

I was thinking… I have approx. 90 points after downsizing cutthroats. 2 balista do not fit into this list. So what about upgrading Dwarf regiment into 14 strong and with blunderbusses? Stand&shoot can Kill a knight or two. And I can Shield wall and then counter.

++ Characters [858 pts] ++
Sorcerer-Prophet [445 pts]
(Darkforged weapon, Heavy armour, Level 4 Wizard, General, Bale Taurus, Talisman of Protection, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Daemonology)

Black Orc Warboss [354 pts]
(Great weapon, Full plate armour, Wyvern, Trollhide Trousers, Effigy Of Mork, Enchanted Shield)

Hobgoblin Khan [59 pts]
(Hand weapon, Throwing weapons, Great weapon, Giant Wolf)

++ Core Units [582 pts] ++
10 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [30 pts]
(Hand weapons, Shortbow)

10 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [30 pts]
(Hand weapons, Shortbows)

14 Infernal Guard [264 pts]
(Hailshot blunderbluss, Heavy armour, Shield, Drilled (0-1 per 1000 points), Deathmask (champion), Standard bearer)

15 Black Orc Mob [258 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Stubborn, Veteran, 8x Shields, 11x Great weapon, Boss, Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Special Units [310 pts] ++
Iron Daemon [310 pts]
(Steam Cannonade, Hand weapons, Hellbound)

---

Created with “Old World Builder”

[https://old-world-builder.com]

[MrMelons]

I managed 3 wounds on his Lord with one volley of them that game, go for it, blunderbussess have massive potential just through numbers

[MiSiO]

Ok. I will face Bretonnia. Man this army is OP. Here is the list I will be playing:

We play the one with a ‘tower’ in the middle. I never played this army so … How to deploy and ow to screen with hobgoblins to make in more than just ‘I charge you through into your core units’ screen.

The Baron;'s item allowing him to hit on 3+ no matter of WS is not affected by Egiffy or Storm of Ash?

This is my final version of the list:

++ Characters [860 pts] ++
Sorcerer-Prophet [445 pts]
(Darkforged weapon, Heavy armour, Level 4 Wizard, General, Bale Taurus, Talisman of Protection, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Daemonology)

Black Orc Warboss [354 pts]
(Great weapon, Full plate armour, Wyvern, Trollhide Trousers, Effigy Of Mork, Enchanted Shield)

Hobgoblin Khan [61 pts]
(Hand weapon, Throwing weapons, Great weapon, Shield, Giant Wolf)

++ Core Units [615 pts] ++
10 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [30 pts]
(Hand weapons, Shortbow)

10 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [30 pts]
(Hand weapons, Shortbows)

15 Infernal Guard [297 pts]
(Hailshot blunderbluss, Heavy armour, Shield, Drilled (0-1 per 1000 points), Blackshard Armour (0-1 per 1000 points), Deathmask (champion), Standard bearer)

15 Black Orc Mob [258 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Stubborn, Veteran, 8x Shields, 11x Great weapon, Boss, Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Special Units [275 pts] ++
Iron Daemon [275 pts]
(Steam Cannonade, Hand weapons)

---

Created with “Old World Builder”

[https://old-world-builder.com]

I am wondering is Storm of Ash is a good choice. Sure it messes up Cav and pegasai vs my WS of 4+ but a Daemonology magic missle feels good.

[Jasko]

Phew, tough battle ahead! That Duke can just tear through both your monsters in one combat round. But he does not have Sirienne’s Locket, so would be vulnerable to multiple wounds attacks. I guess your list is as set as his? Mhm. Yeah only model in your army he cannot just eat is the Iron Daemon. If you have the chance, try and tie him down in combat with it.

@MiSiO

The Baron;'s item allowing him to hit on 3+ no matter of WS is not affected by Egiffy or Storm of Ash?

So, I would say the -1 to hit roll still applies. The rule for the Seal of Parravon says “[…] regardless of the target’s Weapon Skill.” Both Effigy as well as Ash Storm do not modify the WS in any way, they’re just a -1 to hit period. It does not use the wording of something like e.g. Meteoric Iron where it says “[…] in any way.” Could come down to a TO vote or be one of those things where in his turn he hits on a 3+ and in your turn on a 4+.

[MiSiO]

@Jasko

Phew, tough battle ahead! That Duke can just tear through both your monsters in one combat round. But he does not have Sirienne’s Locket, so would be vulnerable to multiple wounds attacks. I guess your list is as set as his? Mhm. Yeah only model in your army he cannot just eat is the Iron Daemon. If you have the chance, try and tie him down in combat with it.

Yes. The idea is to keep flyers in my back line and spread between flanks so only one can be threatened by a Baron. I am trying to figure out how to deploy cutthroat screens too. I think key part is to take a hit and then counter punch. Blunderbussiers and Black Orcs can do serious damage to cav and those 4+ pegasai knights.

ID will try and hunt Baron for sure! He will deal with all his punchy units.

[Jasko]

I’m not gonna lie, it’s going to be tough! He’ll know the ID is the only thing he can’t one-punch with the Duke and would struggle to kill, especially without lance bonus, so he’ll make sure to be wherever the ID is not. And those damn Pegasus Knights hold all the cards, they’ll dictate when and what to charge.

[MrMelons]

I would try to put the hobgoblins somewhere I wouldn’t mind them running away but where they can also shoot if not targeted. Ideally the enemy will target them with something which can allow you to use them as bait to put the pegasi in a position you want them to be in (stand and shoot blunderbuss perhaps?)

Also, this tactic may be considered too cheesy and a bit dishonorable. But if you put them on one of the edges of the board, the enemy will have to reform instead of following up lest they fly off the table, or better yet fail their leadership and be elimated. You could maybe do this but with the tower, if you put them so that the enemy will become stuck against the terrain after persuing them, giving you the opportunity to charge them.

[MiSiO]

Tower will be a “scoring token” only. Not terrain. But I like Your tactics.

[Zoddtheimmortal]

A couple of death rockets or bolt throwers might have been nice to threaten the duke…

The bright side is all of his units are very killable. Id try and kill the peg knights with magic missiles.

Take the charge with the cds and black orcs then counter with the iron demon. Try and stay compact to not offer up glanks or rear to peg knights.

Maybe try keep ur characters away from the duke and hit his average units. The vps will add up…

Good luck

[MiSiO]

I think that is my plan. I will keep my heros away from Duke. I might not even take Stormof Ash but the Daemonology magic missle. I also plan to use Stubborn and Shield Wall to soak those charges.

Still cutthroats are a mistery to me. How to use them.

[Zoddtheimmortal]

At a unit size of 10…use them as diverters , send a lance formation away from something you dont want to be charged

[MiSiO]

Sure but who will charge cutthtroats when they can charge anything else with the speed adventage?