Basically, yes. It has been for a long time now, with the odd Artisan’s Contest for writing boardgame rules or drawing chucked in once in a while. This opening up for arts & crafts per default might help bring something extra into Artisan’s Contest. We’ll see.
Still, Artisan’s Contest has often been more explorative by choice of themes, and tend dip into more niche themes encouraging creations of your own than Golden Hat do. But it’s also open for people to treat it as another Golden Hat if they like; that’s fine.
Alright, thx. It’s your decision ofc, but I don’t think this solution is the best.
If I see it right, the AC has two potential goals:
Allowing people, who can or want not follow the main genre of the forum, to choose another one
Encouraging people to try something new and compete on a different ground
As it is now planned, the AC would only achieve the first goal, and even this with a question mark:
From reading this thread, it appears to me, that this option is almost received as “If you can’t do the true thing, here, do whatever for replacement”. This, ofc, would be rather discouraging to divert from miniature painting and participate with a non-miniature even if one doesn’t want to paint one (@ goal 1).
But this is not my main point, but that the AC would miss the second goal.
I think you are really missing the point… this IS a miniatures based hobby so most people will do something miniature based… we have seen different types of entries in the past, and admiral allows them all. I have never known an entry to be refused.
If i want to enter a full scale working version of a chorf music instrument in the current comp it would be accepted and shown, and it would get some votes.
You dont have to enter a mini, you dont even have to enter the competitions if you dont feel the theme suits you, but like it or not… miniatures is what we are all here for…
@Kuanor : You’ve got a point for sure. But it also depends on how we run future competitions. For instance, let’s say the hybrid test works out, for sake of thought experiment.
This frees up the yearly contest slot usually scheduled for art contests, by making art fine to enter in the usual Artisan’s Contests. Whether or not one would like to do it regularly such as once per year, or just whenever one feels like it, we could then run more of an oddball AC every now and then: Such as writing your own CD boardgame, or other themes outside the miniature scope.
The regular hybrid Artisan Contest themes could also continue to explore something different every now and then, including flora and fauna, civilian scenes, baggage trains and other things normally outside the default scope of army collections. All such theme scould do with both modelling/terrain building, and art.
I’m all ears for ideas for future Artisan Contest themes, so any and all suggestions are welcome. Here is a list of all previous ones, for reference. I started running contests in 2014 with AC XV (15) and onward. People might be able to tell that I’ve got a soft spot for niche stuff, for doing something out of the ordinary and explore new nooks and crannies.
One thing I’ve found through the years, is that broad themes tend to work out fine. It allows people who just want to do something already planned for their army to enter, and the Chaos Dwarf niche is especially well endowed with plenty of members who will think outside the box and bring an exotic take on any theme. The net result tend to be that more people will enter, and we still get to see a lot of clever out of the box stuff.
Of course, if hybrid ACs don’t work out, then we drop them and see to it that art & crafts get their due share of dedicated contests, and the same goes for both good and feasible out of the box proposals as well. Know that I’ve always been a lover of niche stuff, but it’s best for the community if most themes are broad and useful for people’s painted miniature collections.
THIS is the crux of it, isn’t it. The historical evidence suggests we don’t need rules to do something outside the box. We were born outside the box, breathe outside the box, thrive, pillage, and loot outside the darn box.
And that spirit is infectious, over time any pidgeon-holed newcomer will be yoinked from the warm cozy box into the bold, brave, beautiful, and 9 asscannon having unknown!
To paraphrase a cinematic quote my friend JAB is too fond of repeating ad nauseam:
“You merely adopted the asscannon. I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn’t see the light before I was already a man, and by then it was nothing to me but blinding.”
For a moment, when you were speaking about entering the GH with a full scale music instrument, I though I was. ^^"
This all sounds fine, but how then would you emphasize the difference between the yearly, non-oddball AC and the GH?
As a general note, to my estimation, it needs the right measure of freedom and restriction to get people interested. You want them to feel like they have the perfect idea that fits the theme and genre, which doesn’t occur as much with total arbitrariness, but also without hindering this idea by restrictive details. More freedom is only up to a point an advantage. In our case, if you are running different types of contests, you’ll do well by clearly distinguishing between them and making each of them a unique opportunity.
I agree with you I’m principal @Kuanor, however I think we have to keep the size of our community in mind. I’m not privy to our actual active user numbers, but our GH/AC contests tend to run between 14-20 entries, while something more specific like the last Scribes brought in <10. On the other extreme, our last Open Theme GH brought in >30.
I don’t know what a good target number is and that is worth discussion but we don’t want to run contests that people aren’t interested in entering. What I’d love to see is enough non-miniature entries in the more open AC posited here to justify greater specificity in our contests, but only time will tell.
As a veteran of checks notes 1 GH and 0 AC contests I think it’s high time I gave my two cents here.
Concerning conversions in GH contests: please keep them allowed. There are some people here, who convert basically every model in their armies. I want to keep seeing them in the contests. Personally I wouldn’t even mind if the whole model is scratchbuilt. What’s the difference? It’s ok the buy a model, it’s ok to print a model, it’s also ok to first digitally sculpt a model and then print it, so logically it must also be ok the sculpt a model with green stuff and paint it.
As for the AC, I say keep it as open as possible. Our contests are always best when they get as much buzz as possible. I don’t think allowing models dilutes the competition. You know why I think that? Because it’s up to us. I’ll tell you a little secret: when I vote on (hybrid) AC contests, I will most likely not vote for model entries. Specifically to honour alternative entries. I understand where you’re coming from, @Kuanor. But I just factor that in internally. A model entry for AC would need to be exceptional for me to get a vote. Say the theme is „Hobgoblins“. If you enter a single painted hobgoblin model, something which could just as well be in a Hobgoblin GH, I’ll probably not vote it. But if you enter a great hobgoblin diorama, idk a whole wolf rider tribe on a hunt, something which would not fit a GH but is still very much a model entry, I’ll vote on it. Yet I can still admire a single model AC entry, praise the artist and tell them how much I liked the work.
But one could as well make it a rule to get people less confused and more sure they are doing the right thing!
Dioramas would be a grey zone between minis and non-minis and for the sake of more freedom, I’d imagine them allowed in both cases.
I fully agree concerning conversions, btw.
For all the reasons you called, for the Golden Daemon analogy @flagellant04 mentioned before, and also because we are not trying to enforce the promotion of specific production lines at the cost of our painting competitions.
Well, it’s the right thing according to you and me, maybe, not necessarily everyone else. I’m not sure making a rule here is the best approach. Someone who is not really able to draw or craft or so (me, for example. Zanko said something along those lines as well) might still just want to paint a nice model and “enter” it into the competition, maybe not even to win it, just take part in the fun. More entries means more engagement and that’s always a good thing for the contests!
Why are you so set on adding more rules to competitions that have been running fine like they are for more than 10 years?
If people are confused about what they can or can’t enter in the competition they schould read the competition description that’s in every competition.
The forum, admiral and the competitions have always been very inclusive. Even in a mini orientated competition a drawing would be allowed and have a chance to win. What more do you want?
Rules restrict… running multiple parallel comps requires loads of administration. Enforcing rules… more administration… remember that what admiral does in regard to the competitions is purely in his free time and a hobby.
I personally think we should close the topic as the majority of replies have been to open the comps up to allow more creativity and diversity. @admins anyone disagree?
You make the impression as if you were afraid the majority would change otherwise. You stated your opinion several times here. And I’m not even telling you what to do, just discussing a few consideriations with interested users.
Your point, additional administration load, would be another such consideration and speak against some solutions.
Admiral’s point of trying something first and watch the results is valid as well, of course.
Reading the rules, though, is not a valid point as long as they basically say that one can enter with whatever and give no criteria to decide upon while voting.
I can’t be sure either, ofc. I think it depends on the estimated value of clarity.
To me, the contest rules are clear when read, and questions can always be asked to the staff if something needs clarity.
In my opinion the contest formats have created good engagement with the forum user-base. We have had art (non-mini) only contests and other variations. I find the themes (ex. Bullcentaurs, musicians, etc) are the evocative part that bring me to enter certain ideas, whether the format be a miniature, other art, or open format.
The past open themes have also been exciting to vote on! Regardless it’s always a joy to open that contest thread over coffee and witness the glory. I will note that when I open an artisans contest thread I thoroughly enjoy not knowing what in Hashuts name I’m about to view, I have come to expect the wild, obscure, innovative, and out of the box entries people consistently crank out. This separates it from the GH contest in my mind as I’m opening that to pour over great painting. I certainly don’t see a need for voting criteria in either case.
It is also very reasonable to make tweaks to the contest format. We’ll then see how engagement tracks against changes. The primary metric I see for “contest format quality” would be engagement. Getting more awesome work from folks of any variety and posted to our archive for all to see. The people here have shown a history of creating fantastic pieces of art in many mediums.
We’re a rather creative environment full of friendly folk here, and I think the contests tend to embody that spirit.
Certain formats may be tried via experiment, as Admiral has stated and due to the appeal from users here. If those formats garner engagement, the mindset behind them will be repeated. Other tweaks may be had down the road. This is fine.
Even if the Artisans is defaulted to a hybrid, that doesn’t mean we can’t run some other-art-only Artisans in the future.The contest briefs will clearly explain what types of content to enter in each contest. We’ll plow on.
asscannons ftw!
