[WHFB][3rd edition] A Cut&Paste Chaos Dwarf Army List

[cornixt]

First aim was to build a Chaos Dwarf army list for 3rd edition Warhammer by cutting/pasting the units together. The intent being to keep it as 3rd edition as possible rather than allowing the stuff from 4th edition onwards to influence it too much. 3rd edition feels like it is earlier in the timeline, so maybe they would use orcs and goblins a lot more than later when the Hobgoblins take up the roles more.

Here the process I went through and how I went off-track:
Started with Dwarf army list and took out the dwarf units. Removed non-standard dwarf characters.
Added Chaos Dwarf units from Chaos Ally list.
Added Orc, Goblin, and Black Orc units.
Added Hobgoblin units from Hobgoblin Merc list.
Realised there was no proper Hobgoblin archer unit, so created one by renaming Half-Orc unit
Added Half-Orc heroes as Hobgoblin Heroes
Added Boar Centaur heroes
Added Wolfriders
Trying to work out how to add Blunderbuss units and Boar Centaur units
Who gets Chaos attributes? HGs?

Okay, really gone off course by this stage. Took a step back, start from scratch with the same aim in mind. No blunderbusses, no boar centaurs without war machines, why am I changing Hobgoblins to shoehorn them in? Restarting again:

Start with Chaos army list and took out all units. Replaced the heroes with standard dwarf heroes. The Chaos list feels more 3rd edition for CDs than Dwarf list.
Added Chaos Dwarf units from Chaos Ally list.
Added Orc, Goblin, and Black Orc units.
Add Chaos Dwarf Crossbows and Swivel Gun from WD108 article.
Hobgoblin Mercs are just mercenaries, no special mention other than with the other mercs.
Boar Centaur units could just be Chaos Ally Centaurs if someone really wants them.
Add Goblin Wolfriders and spear chukkas to fill the same role as HGs?
Added ass-cannon but called it Beastcannon.
Add CD Juggernaut? Simple rules, the only thing in the whole list that isn’t copy/pasted apart from the cannon picture. Renamed it to something I could copy from another place.
Swivel guns have a lot of rules.

So I probably overdid it with adding wolfriders and spear chukkas, and my rules for juggernauts are a bit boring. Everything is as it is in the Warhammer Armies pages and White Dwarf articles apart from the unit sizes for CD warriors and crossbowmen. CD Sorcerers are just Chaos Sorcerers with Dwarf Wizard stats. It’s only when you really into this kinds of thing that you realise how inconsistent everything is in the book, from formatting to phrasing. The “models per unit” numbers (usually 1-4) seem to be at odds with the limit number in the unit title (usually 0-3). The whole thing could do with balancing the faded ink with the less faded. I’m going to sit on this for a week or so and come back to see what I should change, any suggestions welcome. Maybe allow HGs to be up to 50% of the army instead of just 25% to encourage them to be used. No CD Beastmaster? Bombardiers?

[harvestmouse]

I actually was looking today at doing the same project, that’s pretty amazing. I even had Wilmark’s open to look at. I think his is more similar to your direction, than I plan to go.

The juggernaut and Siege cannon are a problem though.

There are certainly figures that were suitable to be a ‘beastmaster’. However, the issue with beastmasters is that they didn’t really work. What’s the point of taking beasts, if they’re curbed to the master’s movement? And Dwarfs are slower still.

Hounds are all about speed, harassment and preventing charges. None of which they can really do with a beastmaster. That said, I’d probably include one.

[cornixt]

I hadn’t realised at the time that Willmark went down the same route of renaming Half-Orcs as Hobgoblins. I guess we both saw the same issue with the regular Hobgoblin stats and found the same solution (although I abandoned that route). I really don’t understand why GW made 3rd edition Hobgoblins based on Mongols and didn’t have mounted units or any good with bows.

The CD Beastmaster really just doesn’t fit anywhere, and I really struggle to justify adding it just because it had a model. I only added the asscannon and juggernaut because they are so iconic, but everything else on that page apart from the swivel gun is something I’m not really all that sure about including in the army at all.

[harvestmouse]

So citadel hobgoblins are really old. So, I think…they generally pre-date Warhammer, or thinking of Warhammer as armies (instead of a hotch-potch of units). Certainly, by 3rd ed they weren’t producing figures anymore. And that’s really where armies became armies.

So, I very much doubt there was much call for mounted units when the citadel lines were produced.

For my list, I don’t want to go down the 4th ed style armies route.

My main factors will be:

1. 3rd edition fluff (So they’ll hate goblinoids and come from the north of the world edge mountains).
2. Be based around the 3rd edition figure lines.

[Zoddtheimmortal]

I would love to get my hands on that beastmaster model. I would use it with 5 chaos/non chaos hounds. The unit would set up together and could use his ld while together. Once they split as a result of a charge they behave as 2 seperate entities and vps awarded as per worth.
Its basically the ogre hunter and 2 sabretusks " sic em lads" from their book. Its a cheap expendable unit that definitely adds character

[cornixt]

I did make sure that I didn’t add anything that didn’t already exist in 3rd edition, that was why I used goblin units instead of hobgoblins for wolfriders and bolt thrower. The army is a bit thin on variety without goblinoids. Would you have Chaos units fill it out instead? Centaurs, minotaurs, thugs, and marauders, all might work okay in limited numbers. I guess if we were going strictly by 3rd ed fluff then we would have to pull back on the magic too.

[Zoddtheimmortal]

Are there any other 3rd ed beast master rules you could port over for the cd beastmaster?

[cornixt]

There is a Beastman beast master in the Chaos army rules. There was a Chaos Warrior beastmaster model too, but no rules for him or the Chaos Dwarf. Not hard to just switch out the stats and adjust the points, everything was fixed values back then.

[harvestmouse]

Well, this is your list, I don’t really want to influence that. I feel, I can be over-bearing in such matters. I don’t have an issue with how you’ve done things. In fact it makes sense. You can use a wider assortment of figures with it.

My plan is to make as much use of the 3rd edition figures as I can. I think there’s enough variety there. However, the fact you’re worried about the variety is selling me more on the beastmaster and hounds.

A few ideas I have are:

The Chaos Dwarfs in the Slaves to Darkness book are called ‘Marauders’. As the ‘Marauder’ Miniatures line is a little special. I plan to add this as an entry, as a shock elite unit. E.g. giving the player to field a full unit of MMs as their elite unit.

My introduction will use the entry in the WHFB book. Where, it tells about the World Edge mountains of the north being the domain of the CDs and ever pushing south. In my mind this means there’s not a definitive devided between Dwarf types. Most of the World Edge mountains are the domain of the Dwarfs. Then the further north you go the more ‘Norsey’ they get. Then further north still, the Norsey start to get Chaosy, until they’re very Chaosy.

This I feel is highlighted in both Norse Dwarf and Chaos Dwarfs having the Berserker unit (unlike standard Dwarfs). So, I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine the most north of Norse Dwarfs being on terms with Chaos Dwarfs. So, the Norse ally contingent is viable in my opinion.

Lastly, and this one will be definitely controversial. My main aim is to use all the figures of that period. And one of the figure lines (or 2) were the Squats! I’m not sure how to do this exactly. However, Slaves to Darkness has a lot on 40k weapons being used in WHFB, by Khorne followers.

So…I was thinking…a small unit (5 maybe?) of Squats that might work a little bit like Miners. In that they’re somewhere in the Warp on a distant planet with 40K tech, and you don’t know when (or if) they’re going to turn up.

As for the Beastmaster. I feel that if you decrease the movement to Dwarfy leg speed. You’re really hurting the viability of the unit. Hmmmmmmmmmmm the Beastmaster himself is a sort of ‘special’ Beastman of sorts. I’m wondering keep the stats as they are, and use him as a quasi BeastDwarf.

[cornixt]

Ah yes, the Khorne Chaos Dwarfs with S4. I had considered them in my first iteration of the list, but didn’t include them because there were too many units at the time. I guess there is room for them now. Even the Khornate crossbowmen from WB108 get S4 and access to double handed weapons, but not the Khornate swivel gun crew for some reason even though the other CD war machines crews get it. Possibly an oversight. They definitely add some variety.

I remembered to check the Chaos Hounds rules from Lost&Damned and found they could be led by any Chaos Champion in Nurgle and Tzeentch armies, so that would include Chaos Dwarfs but makes them quite expensive to field.

Maybe I’ll consider having a go at a non-greenskin army as an alternative fork. It’s pretty much just swapping out a couple of pages from what I have already done.

[Admiral]

Very nice work! @twisted.moon might find something of interest here.

Cheers

[harvestmouse]

Something else to consider, you remember the old Khorne Juggernaut fluff that they were created by CDs for Khorne champions? I can’t remember where that little tidbit is.

However, there only in StD, right? I can’t remember exactly what they can be used for. To pull a chariot or to be mounted by a hero?

[cornixt]

Khorne Juggernauts could be taken as a mount by Champions of Khorne, pull a chariot, and were also an option to mount a special kind of Chaos Knight called a Legionnaire. At 840pts per unit of 8, they’d be taking up a chunk of any army.

The more I look at it, the Army of Khorne list from Slave to Darkness is already a Chaos-based Chaos Dwarf list. It’s already got more than a third of the units being Chaos Dwarfs, and you can take even more as allies. The only issue would be that the characters only have a 20% chance of being Chaos Dwarfs if you randomise the race (although they do have the greatest chance of being the army general), and the wizards can’t use magic.

So now I have to consider what kinds of Chaos Dwarf army would I want to make that can’t already be made by the Army of Khorne list. I can only think of those led by a Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer right now. There might be other ways to think around it though. Still more to ponder.

[harvestmouse]

Do you have a page number for the Legionnaires? I really try not to open my copy at all anymore.

So my thinking is that I want to make a list, to use the CD figures. Where as, you want to (as you say) cut and paste boxes into 1 list.

My reasoning is that not all Chaos Dwarfs are alike. Some would be very Khorne, others would be more neutral and some close to the Norse borders would be (like more modern chaos marauders) not far over the edge of being chaotic, and some Norse not far under the edge of being chaotic.

Personally, I think what players need (if there are any) is a way to use their figures, in a way that doesn’t break the game or the fluff.

[cornixt]

@harvestmouse

Do you have a page number for the Legionnaires? I really try not to open my copy at all anymore.

p184 for the rules on Khorne Legionnaires, p186 for the Slaanesh ones.
p178 for the fluff about them.

I think we are both approaching different targets from different angles, so I’ll be interested to see what you come up with for your list.

[harvestmouse]

Thanks a lot for that. I’ll have a look at them. As you pointed out, they do seem a bit of a focal point; especially for non-CDs…AND THIS IS ABOUT THE CDs!!!

I think it’s a good thing that we’re doing something different. It might have been awkward if you produced something then I "Yeah, well this is what I think!!!"ed you.

Graphically, I’m more than happy to contribute or help out. If there’s an idea you have or something you need. Or if you want to bounce your idea off of a wall.

One of the reasons I stayed away so long. Is that I found that doing gaming sprites and ‘skins’ satiated my painting bug. So, I’m able to make a bit of this and that for these projects.

Is Wilmark still around? He was sort of there when I was still around, and seems to have been active not that long ago.

[cornixt]

I put these up here to get feedback, even if I didn’t specifically ask for it. I find that if I chew on it myself for too long that I end up going round in circles, so all this discussion has helped me to sort it out more in my own head, so I am grateful for it. So don’t think you are antagonising me or anything, your perspective is very helpful even if your own ideas are a bit different from my own aim. I’m not even entirely certain of what my aim really is, I guess I’ll know it when I get there.

Willmark has been MIA for a couple of years. Even his non-CD blog dried up not long after. Life can get in the way sometimes.

[cornixt]

I still feel pretty happy with the cut&paste list.

Here’s a 3rd ed version of Legion of Azgorh that I felt the need to get onto paper. Nowhere near finished yet, needs a lot more work. I tried to keep as much of the 3rd ed style as possible, even the bits that could be made better. You can really tell the difference between 7th edition’s style of piling everything into unique special rules, while 3rd just hopes you’ll look in the bestiary for generic rules. Will be doing my own poor line art for the images.

[twisted.moon]

late to the party, but yes, that’s a nice mash up. i’d leave the greenskins out myself, but perhaps replace them with some beastmen or chaos thug troops.