[WHFB] Gnoblar Country

[Gargolock]

So… see this little stretch of water, do we know if its navigable?

Like per se could Chaos Dwarfs who sailed South from Zharr Naggrund be accessing the underground harbour at Karak Krakaten to dock while they raid the Haunted Forest and the foothills of the mountains of Mourn for slaves?

I’m starting a project and I am trying to brainstorm a possible narrative for big hat Chaos Dwarfs in the South. Gnoblar Country is an amazing place, you can nestle almost any faction here.

What is haunting the haunted forest? the only lore reference I know is about Ogres and Beastmen- but what if the original inhabitants of the city of spires chose to live a nomad Asrai lifestyle in the woods between here and there? That’s the wood elves, but what about everyone else?
You could put tomb kings from nearby Nagashizzar that are searching for lost artifacts in an attempt to resurrect their fallen lord. The Haunted Forest could also just contain vampires of course. You could easily head-canon a long-lost Lizardman Slaan deep in the jungles of the Dragon Isles. Dark Elves frequent these seas as well, and we know the High Elves failed to recover the navigation stone at the tomb of Annurell and might be looking for a rematch now that they know it’s fallen into Dhrazh-Zharr hands. Brettonians might be passing through on some prophesized quest toward the city of spires due to the connection between the lady and the elven pantheon. Every other human faction has reason to be protecting a caravan traveling The Spice Route or the Ivory Road to the north. In the Ogre Kingdoms book it mentions how Gorgers break into far-flung clandestine dwarven mines that are still active unbeknownst to most.

Not only is it a prime area for a fan-made campaign it also just has wicked hobby potential. The opportunities for narrative battles such as the siege of Pigsbarter or an encampment ambush at Karak Krakaten invite the construction of some pretty wicked battlefields.

I don’t wish for my Chaos Dwarves to be from The Black Fortress as I do not wish for them to be from the Legion of Azgorh. Their hats are too large and their honour too great. I want them to hail from Mingol Zharr Naggrund itself, but be adept seafarers who frequent The River Ruin.

If there is any proof of waterfalls along the aforementioned stretch of water then docking at The Black Fortress would suffice… But I think repurposing the ruins of Karak Krakaten is a lot cooler and places the Dawi Zharr much deeper in the fray. As well as accomplishing yet further distinguishment from The Legion of Azgorh and their treachery.

I plan on doing a lot with this, characters, ancestry, and a timeline. but before I start I just wanna hear other opinions on the plausibility of this.

[flagellant04]

I can find very little information on that river, maybe check the Ogre Kingdoms army book. I doubt there’s much info seeing as I can’t even come up with a name for it!

I say go for it, I don’t see any immersion-breaking reason it wouldn’t work. Hell, I’ve got Chaos Dwarfs in the New World! To paraphrase Mark Twain, never let the lore get in the way of a good story.

[Gargolock]

I did find the name of this river, it is written in Chaos Dwarfs From the Darkness by Alfred Nunez Jr; the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay companion written entirely about Chaos Dwarves which I am not entirely sure about the canon-inity of. (?)

“South of the Flayed Rock, the River Andun emerges from the east and mingles its clean water in with the polluted and sluggish River Ruin. This mixing dilutes the remaining poisons, and the lower River Ruin flows more freely to the sea.”

Specifying clean water- I am aware of the likelihood that a clean mountainous river probably has a waterfall or two- but… What if it was in a valley? and that little lake we see that has its shores littered with settlements is the basin of several mountain streams, and it gently outflows into the River Ruin from the bottom of a valley which explains its width, depth, and ability to be naturally navigated.

I checked the 8th edition Ogre book, and I didn’t see any confirmation of the name Andun myself… but I did find this map! which strongly presents this river as navigable, showing it snaking through a valley into the foothills of the Mountains of Mourn.

So yeah… it is navigable. It looks like Chaos Dwarven ships that embark from Zharr Naggrund sailing South would be able to reach the docks of Shambletown, seen on the Tamurkhan map to be on the shores of that mountainous lake.

As for the name, I can’t find anything for the lake. The River Andun also isn’t contradicted in either of the two Ogre army books that have been published throughout the years (6E & 8E). I will continue calling it The Andun unless anyone finds a name more canon.

[Gargolock]

This is the 6th edition Ogre book’s map. It’s even more sailable looking in this one. I didn’t know about the celestial dragon monk temple in this area- exciting! It’s also good to know Braugh Slavelords’ name for future reference as he presumably interacts with the Dhrazh-Zharr often.

[flagellant04]

Good find! That’s not an official source but it was written by one of the original WFRP authors so it’s as close as you could want.

It sounds like you’ve got a great foundation for your House, I look forward to seeing what you make of it!

[ashur]

Great idea to plunge into the unknown parts of our world. I’m up to my eyeballs in Culchan Plains lore myself, not that there is much to begin with.

I like that mountain lake giving birth to the Andun. Are CD’s operating that far into the Mountains of Mourn? It provides for lot of different factions competing for control of the river, the mountains and the forest.

Cd’s could look more rugged than the disciplined regiments from their strongholds, ready to face the cold and the mountains. A mix between dwarf and chaos dwarf esthetics. Looking for Karak Krakaten could be the perfect reason to have them so far south.

[ashur]

Damn it! Now I want a dwarf army from Karak Krakaten. With rhinoxen hides and ivory helmets.

[Gargolock]

I found a couple of quotations that might give us more of an idea of what Gnoblar Country might be like.

From Tamurkhan: Throne Of Chaos

Far to the south, the broken valley gave way through a narrow, high-sided ravine to a wide plateau of rock which itself sunk in its outer reaches towards endless hills of lifeless grey and a wide stagnant river flowing westward from a soot-black lake.

The winter had seen the chaos host make its way along the grey river through league after league of rolling, barren hills caught between the mountains to the North and the trackless haunted forest to the South. They had battled their way through teeming Gnoblar swamps, gigantic black scorpions the size of watchtowers and a score of brutal Ogre tribes which had to be broken, driven off or overmatched in turn. Although given more open battlefields than before, none ever posed the threat that the Red Fist Tribe had.

From the 8th Edition Ogre book on The Feastmasters Tribe.

The well-fed lowlanders of the Feastmaster tribe are famous for two things: the quality of their food and the Halflings that live amongst them. Their heavily jowled Tyrant, Blaut Feastmaster, captured a string of the small folk during his many travels and, in a display of foresight and extreme self­ control, brought them home for the lads instead of eating them then and there. The Halflings, in perpetual fear of ending up ‘in the trough’, fulfill much the same role as Gnoblars, but in addition to fetching, they also help to prepare the food. As long as they keep making top-notch meals, the Halflings won’t end up being a light snack themselves (probably).

From Ogre Kingdoms 6th Edition Book on Braugh Slavelord:

Known to the Chaos Dwarfs as Ghrask Dragh, literally ‘corpse-slaver’, Braugh Slavelord is a legend even amongst his own merciless peers. Ogre slavers are a common enough sight in the far corners of the world, but only one amongst them can claim to enslave his prey in death as well as life.
Back when he was a Maneater travelling the forests of the Old World, Braugh was imprisoned by a powerful Necromancer. But Braugh was strong even for an Ogre, and eventually broke free of the Necromancer’s dungeons. He found his captor asleep in a coffin, and beat him to death with a chair, skinning the remains as a trophy. Braugh then ate half of the Necromancer’s prisoners and dragged the rest away as slaves, tying them to his gut-plate with the enchanted chains he had ripped from the dungeon wall.
Were it not for the trophy Braugh took, his legend would end there. But the Necromancer’s magic was strong - even when one of Braugh’s slaves died of exhaustion, it remained bound to his servitude. So it is that Braugh Slavelord deals not only in flesh but in spirits, trading the services of the quick and the dead to whoever pays the right price, an army of unquiet ghosts and walking corpses shambling meekly in his wake.

Tons to discuss here… Why is the mountain lake black? I guess it makes it easy to dub it Dhrazh Varn, but still- what may be causing this?
Most mountain lakes appear turquoise, and their rivers dark blue, if they experience sun they may turn green due to algae growth. The innate blueness of alpine waterways is due to their cleanliness and clarity, and they naturally appear blue for the same reason the sky is blue.

Why is this one so mucky? Is it the Ogres? or is this lake naturally soot-black? Does anyone know of any similar mountainous aqua within our own world? What could cause this? and how might we implement it within a narrative?

The giant scorpion thing is kinda trippy, presumably they’ve wandered over from the barren deserts surrounding the Great Maw. We know there are gargantuan insectoid monsters over there. Does anyone else know?

Braugh Slavelord turns out to be a bit spooky, which is cool don’t get me wrong; but I desire a more focused approach for my ogres. This is why I adore The Feastmasters, for the most part, I intend on writing about Blaut Feastmaster and his fights with the Dhrazh-Zharr. However, it is good to know there is good reason to ally Ogres and Undead or Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs or all three using Braugh Slavelord and his spooky slavers.

[Admiral]

Nice plans and thoughts and well done research, @Gargolock ! Gnoblar Country is indeed a fascinating place. Humble locations like it will thrill my imagination a thousand times more than uppity-hand godhood power fantasies. Good idea to base your army in its vicinity.

At the moment I just want to chime in with the following: Waterfalls? Rapids? That is hardly a problem for a proper Dawi Zharr navy. If we want a difficult river to be navigable, we will build our fleet to make it navigable. Why not just climb the waterfall or walk around it?

As to the giant scorpion, there is no reason why its ilk could not be native to this region. Scorpions are found across most of the real world, after all. We should not think of giant scorpions as so much a desert creature, as a creature that can be found in most areas where it is not too cold.

The black mountain lake and the grey river Andun is a surprise. I cannot name any real world reasons as to why it would be so. Or is the lake perhaps ridiculously deep and thus dark? Akin to a giant bore hole filled with water?

We may have to pursue a sorcerous reason as to the miscolouring of the mountain lake. Ancient undead magic? It certainly cannot be Chaos Dwarf industry.

[Gargolock]

I am almost done my Chaos Dwarfs. I just need to base them. Soon I will make a showcase post for them. I am about halfway done the Ogres. This is all coming together, slowly.

@Admiral

At the moment I just want to chime in with the following: Waterfalls? Rapids? That is hardly a problem for a proper Dawi Zharr navy. If we want a difficult river to be navigable, we will build our fleet to make it navigable. Why not just climb the waterfall or walk around it?

Good point, we also built the Ghalzharrdrin, or the Skullfire Way. The Tunnel connecting Uzkulak to the Zharr Naggrund. Which baffles me, does it mean the River Ruin is now saltwater? What do Chaos Dwarfs drink? Do Chaos Dwarfs drink beer like regular Dwarfs?

I can imagine the construction of a Lock might be warranted if the Chaos Dwarfs truly believed their excursion to be worthwhile. They are known to travel with large numbers of potential labourers. It would guarantee a return journey, and allow the entire army as well as its munitions and supports to comfortably scale the waterfall.
Plus it feels very Chaos Dwarf-y.

@Admiral

As to the giant scorpion, there is no reason why its ilk could not be native to this region. Scorpions are found across most of the real world, after all. We should not think of giant scorpions as so much a desert creature, as a creature that can be found in most areas where it is not too cold.

I am unsettled by this. I am glad scorpions stay relatively small in our own world. I am even more glad I don’t live anywhere where I have to deal with anything more then harvestmen.