[Archive] 2,000pt Every Option in the List

catbarf:

This is my army list so far, because I like so much in the CD list that I wanted, basically, some of everything:

Chaos Dwarf Lord - 404

Heavy Armor

Shield

Black Hammer of Hashut

Great Taurus

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 100

Level 2

Fire Magic

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 100

Level 2

Metal Magic

Chaos Dwarf Hero - 120

BSB

Armor of Gazrakh

Hobgoblin Hero - 62

Light Armor

Gauntlets of Bazhrakk

19 Chaos Dwarf Warriors (BSB goes here) - 251

Full Command

Banner of Slavery

18 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - 216

Blunderbusses

20 Hobgoblins - 110

Light Armor

Shields

Full Command

19 Hobgoblins (Hobgob hero goes here) - 106

Light Armor

Shields

Full Command

Death Rocket - 80

20 Sneaky Gits - 130

Full Command

2 Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers - 60

Earthshaker - 110

5 Bull Centaurs - 150

Heavy Armor

Full Command

Total - 1999

All comments appreciated.

Thommy H:

No wolf riders? I’d put some of the hobgoblins on them if I were you. Otherwise it’s the epitome of a balanced list…since it contains everything from an army that has a little bit of everything…

Draconis:

Looks good save for a couple of things. You have 5 heros. It’s possible that my mind has escaped the grasp of hobgoblin heros and that they possibly don’t count towards a slot, in this case please feel free to correct, as this news would be welcome even to me.

However, 4 heros max for 2k points is the stipulation I believe.

1 Lord, 2 Level 2 Sorcs, 1 CD hero.

The Hobgoblin makes it a fifth.

Two: You have too few units that I can see that are designated as Chaos Dwarf. At least 3 are required in a 2k list for core. (memory again here could be fuzzy, so again, feel free to correct if I am wrong. I will not take insult I assure you)

Uzkul Werit:

Three Chaos Dwarf Core units are needed in 2000pts and Hobgoblin Heros still take up a slot. It’s Hobgoblin Core units that don’t take up a slot.

Thommy H:

Oh yeah, I never spotted that. You have one too many heroes, and one too few Chaos Dwarf Core units - you need at least three in a 2000 point army.

catbarf:

Whoops…

Hmm. I think I’ll take out the Sneaky Gits and the Hero (my bud needs more bowmen anyway) and replace them with some more BBs.

Damn it, now I need more Skull Pass Thunderers, and I’m fresh out.

Okay, new list:

Chaos Dwarf Lord - 404
Heavy Armor
Shield
Black Hammer of Hashut
Great Taurus

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 100
Level 2
Fire Magic

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 100
Level 2
Metal Magic

Chaos Dwarf Hero - 120
BSB
Armor of Gazrakh

19 Chaos Dwarf Warriors (BSB goes here) - 251
Full Command
Banner of Slavery

18 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - 216
Blunderbusses

15 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - 180
Blunderbusses

20 Hobgoblins - 110
Light Armor
Shields
Full Command

20 Hobgoblins - 110
Light Armor
Shields
Full Command

Death Rocket - 80

2 Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers - 60

Earthshaker - 110

5 Bull Centaurs - 150
Heavy Armor
Full Command

Total - 1992

Now I need to know what to do with the remaining 8 points, how I can fit some Wolf Riders in there, and hopefully how to get 3 more Blunderbusses, since I’d like the two units to be equal.

Think I should remove the Bull Centaur command?

Lepreh Khan:

What you really should do is drop the armor, commands and such off the Hobgoblins. They will give you an outnumber bonus and 3 ranks for 40 points… if you can get a charge with a slave and a warrior unit, you’ll have tons of static combat resolution there.

If you do that then you get the wolfriders. I’m guessing that you took armored hobgoblins for WYSIWYG skull pass purposes, but I always run my slaves around the board naked now.

-LK

metro_gnome:

indeed the best armor for hobgoblins is more hobgoblins…

ErikinWest:

I agree. I’d drop the champion and if you wanted the standard for the hobgobos. I’m not sure if you need the champion for the BC. You also don’t have any dispel scrolls; you should have at least 2 for a 2000pt game (put one on each sorcerer to hedge your chances). I also like the Armor of the Furnace for a mounted CD lord. Gives him a +2 save against shooting and a +1 save in CC. And throws in a +5 WS for good measure. I think you can lower one of the BB from 18 to 15. Also, if you drop the champion from the BC, add another. I usually go for 6. Oh and why not throw the sword of might on your BSB? I thinks its 15 points, and it gives you S5 then.

Cheers,

Erik

catbarf:

The problem with not giving the Hobbos armor is that then they lose the CR. They won’t be getting kills, so they need to win through static CR- and, although a unit of 40 costs the same as a unit of 20 with armor, the unit of 40 will take twice as many kills (against S3) and will lose the combat from the massive casualties they will take. Since the objective is to maximize CR, I don’t think that will work…

Basically, I’m treating the Hobgobs like Empire Infantry. They’re big blocks that can do reasonably on their own but need a flanking unit to do damage.

But I’ll remove the Champion and Musician from the Hobgobs and BCs. I also removed the Warrior Champion, since I’ll have the BSB to fight challenges. Those command models I can do without. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to get many BCs, so I think 5 is the limit. So, a bunch of points freed up, which will go to dispel scrolls and to fill the Blunderbuss unit.

Chaos Dwarf Lord - 404

Heavy Armor

Shield

Black Hammer of Hashut

Great Taurus

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 125

Level 2

Dispel Scroll

Fire Magic

Chaos Dwarf Sorceror - 125

Level 2

Dispel Scroll

Metal Magic

Chaos Dwarf Hero - 120

BSB

Armor of Gazrakh

19 Chaos Dwarf Warriors (BSB goes here) - 241

Standard

Musician

Banner of Slavery

18 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - 216

Blunderbusses

18 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - 216

Blunderbusses

20 Hobgoblins - 90

Light Armor

Shields

Standard

20 Hobgoblins - 90

Light Armor

Shields

Standard

Death Rocket - 80

2 Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers - 60

Earthshaker - 110

5 Bull Centaurs - 120

Heavy Armor

Standard

Total - 1998

metro_gnome:

hobgoblins do not win combat at all…
they distract and break ranks…
and giving them an overpriced banner is like throwing VP down a well…
if you want to win combat cheaply get orcs…

your hobgoblin article should be humuorous to say the least…

Draconis:

hobgoblins do not win combat at all...
they distract and break ranks...
and giving them an overpriced banner is like throwing VP down a well...
if you want to win combat cheaply get orcs...

your hobgoblin article should be humuorous to say the least...

metro_gnome
Hobgoblins can, and do win combats. Especially if you have a unit with a hero in it. Also especially if you use the Lore of Death to have them Cause Fear. I have enough experience against Empire, Skaven, and other armies with Str 3 Toughness 3, the same as hobgoblins, to say that with a strong stance on the matter. Especially since I play Vampire Counts, an army that I design to be notoriously Skeleton heavy in several large blocks of 30 each. Lahmians in fact. Not blood Dragons, Not Von Carstein, Lahmians. And my record out of 50+ games is only 2 losses. No ties. So I think I know of what I speak on the matter. Of course, you will just come out and say I am beyond help and disagree with me on the matter entirely...but I am not saying this for your benefit. I know my own personal win record in games to know that my level of tactical knowledge suffices to carry me through.

I am stating this so I can hopefully abolish a view that I feel is personally wrong, that may spread.

The difference with hobgoblins is their low leadership, and that is their weakness. If they are 12 inches within the general, great. Face it, there are not alot of high strength units out there. With hobgoblins, tactics are essential. Not only that, but you can outnumber your opponent quite a great deal with hobgoblins. Naked or no. Against high point armies like the High Elves, this is great. As it allows us to use swarm tactics. Chaos Especially if they go Chosen Heavy. We can descend down on Chaos, with the correct tactics, like a veritable tide of death.

You need to pick and choose your targets, and send your Chaos Dwarf Warriors against the stronger stuff while the hobgoblins pick off weaker units. If they are maximized in armor, they can do this better for Static Combat resolution. And that is going to be key. Any sane and knowledgeable veteran is not going to send in hobgoblins against chosen mounted chaos knights. However, we can use them to flank, rear attack, and generally otherwise use various tactics to turn the side towards our favor with them while the Chaos Dwarf Masters hold up the front line.

Hobgoblins are sneaky, devious, cowardly greenskins. Use them to reflect that, and you start to understand the tactics behind them.

I've had enough combats be won with VC and only Skeletons against opponents that just from math alone should say I should lose time and time again. But due to tactics I can pull it off. And I'm talking just a basic unit of skeletons fully armored, and massively outnumbered on my end in the combat due to loss of rank and file members. Hand weapon, Light Armor, Shield. 4+ Save. Not something to scoff at when a skeleton can't hit it's way out of a wet paper bag. It's a bog pit. Plain and simple.

As I stated, the only difference is hobgoblins don't cause fear. That can be remedied with the lore of death.

So to sum up my feelings. Tactics make the unit more then any other factor. Use them wrong, and their worthless. This goes for our Chaos Dwarfs, as well as any other units. Use them correctly, and they are invaluable. Especially since you can have so darn bloody many of them.

I don't care how good your math is. Don't care how good probability is. Don't even care how good the stats on a model are. Stats don't win Wars. Tactics and Strategy do. Plain and simple. If you charge headlong into combat with a unit that you know is going to die before you even roll the dice, you're doing something wrong.

A Good general knows how to take what he has, and maximize the efficacy of it to the foremost capability. Hobgoblins are cheap for what they can do, and though they may be throwaway units, we can take ALOT of them. This allows us to hold the Phalanx, and out Maneuver our opponents quite a great deal.

Play against a skaven horde army. You'll see how well slaves work. I've seen a single unit of skaven slaves, weak, pathetic can't win for nothing skaven slaves....completely DESTROY a wood elf army all by itself.

There is always a way to make something worthwhile. Always.

Rootbeer:

Give hobgobs armor and shields if you want, but in a tournament situation, a banner is 100 points when captured, and those hobgobbos will give it up. 20 is a lame number of hobgobs as well, take 10 or 25+. 20 wont get you an outnumber, and that is much cheaper bought than a banner for the same +1.

I had 30 hogobs break a unit of wardancers, treekin, and a treeman in one game, and they did it naked without a banner, thanks to a hobgob hero, dice, and tactics.

Armored skeletons are a whole different ball of wax Drac… the armor is worth it because you can summon more and they get the armor for free, and they get the outnumber with fear causer if you ever win combat by just 1.

Draconis:


Give hobgobs armor and shields if you want, but in a tournament situation, a banner is 100 points when captured, and those hobgobbos will give it up. 20 is a lame number of hobgobs as well, take 10 or 25+. 20 wont get you an outnumber, and that is much cheaper bought than a banner for the same +1.

I had 30 hogobs break a unit of wardancers, treekin, and a treeman in one game, and they did it naked without a banner, thanks to a hobgob hero, dice, and tactics.

Armored skeletons are a whole different ball of wax Drac.. the armor is worth it because you can summon more and they get the armor for free, and they get the outnumber with fear causer if you ever win combat by just 1.


Rootbeer
Not disagreeing on the skeleton bit. I fully realize we can get them back and that is what I love about them. Though I am usually far more offensive then defensive with my Vampire counts. Still, there is a correlation between the two in my example.

1: Take large Blocks. We can maximize attacks if we go 7 wide. Though I myself usually go 5 wide. I'll experiment with those tactics later. If we have fear on the unit and they are large and win combat. Boom, auto break right there. Just like Skeletons. Only thing is we can't get them back as you stated. But again, they're a throwaway unit. Stick what you want on em equipment wise and give em a go.
2: Have them hold by maxing armor if that is your tactical choice for the battle.

Banner doesn't have to be taken. You don't lose a banner if you never have it. And my mindset is usually to have goblins on the flanks. Most players that I play against know Hobgoblins are cheap and worthless...so they don't go after them. They go after the meat of my army, the Chaos Dwarfs. Which allows me to hit them in the flanks as they concentrate on them instead.

Also, we can make a unit of hobgoblins cause fear, and if we want, terror. Sounds kind of funny when you think about it, but yeah. We can do it.

As you stated, they can be effective. Just tactics and if you want insurance, place a hobgoblin hero in them.

I still have to give you kudos for that one model man. He's just awesome. :)

catbarf:

A large unit of hobgobs is harder to maneuver. As I said, Hobgobs don’t win combats on their own- they just die too easily for that. The idea is that they can benefit from the support of nearly anything. Bull Centaurs can charge in the enemy’s flanks and deny rank bonus. CDWs can charge into combat to support them. An Earthshaker can put the hurt down while they’re stuck in melee. Things like that.

A large unit is unwieldy and hard to get into position. And they’ll still die in massive quantities.

I think losing the +1 for outnumbering is worth it to be able to get them into the fights I choose, rather than what my opponent chooses. Besides, if they both charge together, that’s 40 models right there. Why can’t I just use them together?

Leadership isn’t an issue with Hobgobs. With the reroll from Banner of Slavery, they have a 2 in 3 chance of not breaking, at Ld6. If they stay near the general, they aren’t going to flee.

The banner is there because it is very cheap and gives +1 CR. That’s necessary if I want to win through static CR.

Also, to upgrade each unit to 25 apiece would cost me 80pts. For that cost I could have just about 7 Blunderbussiers. Which do I want? A slightly greater chance of outnumbering, or some heavy firepower?

Lastly, the CD army has heavy, powerful units. By using Blunderbussiers and Earthshakers for battlefield control, I can pick my fights to ensure that the Hobgobs never fight very powerful enemy units- or, if they do, they do so with the support of another unit.

They’re also very good protection for Blunderbussiers. They can intercept a charge, to allow the Blunderbussiers to fire on another unit or to charge in and win the combat together.

ErikinWest:

Ok, your army looks good. But I still think some of the items should be changed up. If you drop the banner of slavery, you can put 2 standards on your blunderbusses, and then throw a sword of might on your BSB. I really think your BB should each have a standard. Or just replace the banner of slavery for the 25pt war banner. Perhaps you could make one of your sorcerers the generals to boost the goblins Ld?

Good list though!

Erik

metro_gnome:

im not telling you not to use them…
im telling you that you are spending twice what they are worth…
and that nearly every option in the list is better than them…

catbarf:

There’s no other unit that gives me a decently reliable melee unit for 80pts + command. If I use Chaos Dwarf Warriors, I’m not going to have many units and I’m going to get flanked. There’s no other choice for a cheap melee block.

I just realized that I made a monumental cock-up. Since the BSB is joining the CDW unit, the Banner of Slavery is useless- the BSB provides the same effect. So, I can remove it, give the Standard Bearer a War Banner instead, and now I have 25pts more to spend. I’m not giving the BBs command because they aren’t supposed to get in melee- they’re not very good melee troops, with only S3, one attack, and although they have T4 their armor save is only 5+. So I’ll keep them out of combat.

I have 25pts left. Any recommendations?

metro_gnome:

no… your BSB re rolls break tests… your banner re rolls psych tests…
no… they are not the same thing… Mr. Tactics…

Orcs… even without shields… are much more effective cheap melee blocks…
hobgoblins are not melee blocks at all…

combined with the points wasted on the hobgoblin toys the 25 point could be a 25 strong orc unit…

catbarf:

I think the Empire would disagree with the notion that WS3 S3 T3 troops aren’t melee blocks. My troops are actually cheaper than Empire troops, as a result of not getting the detachment special rule or Ld7 or I3. None of which matter too much.

Orcs are a hell of a lot more expensive. Thus, I lose rank bonuses and outnumbering. They’re also easier to kill (T3 4+ is equal to T4 5+). So, they die in greater quantities than Hobbos, yield more points on death, and despite their greater power with choppas they lose all their static CR. No thanks.

And you’re right, the BoS is for psychology, whereas the BSB is for Break tests. However, after going back over my list I realized that since my Hobgoblins aren’t screens against shooting, I don’t need them to pass break tests- and in any case, by being near the General, the Ld bonus should let them pass any test they might take.

I should reread the BRB. See what happens when I don’t touch it in months?

Besides, Metro, 10 Hobgobs with Shields + LA are just as hard to kill as 20 without those upgrades. However, the unarmored unit will take double CR damage by suffering twice as many wounds. That is a bad thing. So no, they’re not ‘toys’. Hobgoblins are useful as a melee unit when given the right equipment.