KingFisher:
The way I see it being structured is the 4 books represent the campaign and are release chronologically. Each book will have a major focus on a single chaos deity and the warhammer armies it’'s forces interact with. Each successive book would then provide an “minor update” to the previous books contents. I think its a pretty clear given each book will have content for the WoC and DoC based on each deity. So they are therefore a “minor focus” in each book.
For Tamurkhan the clear focus is on Ogre (major) and Chaos Dwarfs (major) and Empire(major) .
The narrative being Nurgle’s (major) the WoC (Nurgle minor) and DoC (Nurgle minor) forces come out of the wastes hijack the ogres and then conquer/force the chaos dwarfs to join them in attacking the Empire. People have said stated that the book end with the siege of Altdorf. If that is true then the chaos forces would clearly also have interactions with the Dwarfs (minor) as well.
The next question becomes which Eldar God will be the focus of the 2nd book ? Based on the success of this book would determine if the player base adopts this narrative as the main story line.
If widely adopted I could see this being a major catalyst in bringing the narrative forward.
It would make the most sense to have Khorne(major)WoC (minor) and DoC (minor) /Khaine HE/DE (major) conflict next. WF could codify that they are really the same God and he is playing his worshipers off each other to raise the body count and grow powerful enough to drive his forces to break Ulthuan. There would also be a minor update on the Nurgle/Empire front. Possibly introducing a new unit or 2 for each side. For example bull centaurs and the Monster mounts for the CD’s which may not be in the Tamurkhan book.
Ideally if people are loving the campaign then we would see Altdorf shattered and the old world split up in several smaller states this could be timed with the release of a (Fallen) Empire Army book. But would allow them to incorporate DoW/Tilea Eastalia and Kislev into the (Fallen)
Empire book. Which would be released at the same time in Q1 of 2012
The third book would clear then have to be Slaanesh WoC (minor) and DoC (minor). They would target the only other strong for for order left in the world the Lizard men (major) plus Dwarf Refugees (Major) from the old world who have been driven out by their Dawi Zharr brethren. (Slaanesh vs Slaan is too good not to happen). I could see Slaanesh forces coming from the southern Warp Gate and have Assaulting Lustia. Additional minor updates for the previous armies. Including word of the fall of Ulthuan with an HE/DE retreat to the old world and the Nurgle forces marching on Brettonia. Additionally you would see conflicts between the tomb kings and VC’s referred to. This would match up well with the new TK book.
Lastly Tzeentch WoC (minor) and DoC (minor) via Skaven. It would be revealed that Tzeentch was actually Both Hashut and The great horned Rat. The skaven would surge into the world attacking the remaining dwarf strong holds. The empty parts of the Dark elf water tunnel system and the various Fallen empire successor states. I could see Tzeentch manipulating the Brets into via a False lady of the lake to riding out against the nurgle forces. Then the CD’s learn about Tzeentch actually being Hashut and turn on the Ogres. There would be a significant WE/Beastman conflict. which the WE would win with the help of the elf refugees, that would allow them to then turn and repulse the Khorne invasion forces. The Lizardmen and dwarfs would have defeated Slaanesh and with the help of a hidden Old one close the southern Warp gate. The gate would re-open in the Southlands and go into conflict with the Feuding TK’s and VC’s.
This last book would complete the updates to the chaos dwarfs with their new slaves taken from the Greenskins of the old world and their expanded empire. I sort of left the greenskins out i didn’t really think of a good fit for them in my narrative , any thoughts? also it would be fine to just ignore some armies like Orcs TK’s VC’s etc.
snowblizz:
There’s no amount of vocabulary that can express how much I dislike the idea. Don’t take that as criticism of your ideas, but there’s just no good going to come from a massive upheaval of the WHFB world.
cornixt:
I seriously doubt there will be anything along the lines of revealing that god X is the same as god Y. It’s tough to speculate to specifically when the first book hasn’t even been shown yet.
KingFisher:
Well rather then my specific predictions how do you guys feel about the structure I suggested?
Or what are you ideas for the pairings of Gods with armies to create conflict?
AGPO:
I somehow doubt they’ll hack up the whole structure of the Warhammer World. It makes bad business sense.
KingFisher:
I somehow doubt they'll hack up the whole structure of the Warhammer World. It makes bad business sense.
AGPO
So what is your thought about the general structure I am positing?
Thorne:
if it were for some sort of suplimental campaign source book it could be applied but I cant see how such a fractal grouping like that would work full time in the warhammer world. It would be basicly throwing away all editions of Warhammer and starting from scratch again wasting many years of evolution for the warhammer hobby. Largely pointless.
KingFisher:
if it were for some sort of suplimental campaign source book it could be applied but I cant see how such a fractal grouping like that would work full time in the warhammer world. It would be basicly throwing away all editions of Warhammer and starting from scratch again wasting many years of evolution for the warhammer hobby. Largely pointless.
Thorne
Isnt tamurkhan exactly what you said? a "suplimental campaign source book" the book is in no way required to play warhammer in the same way forgeworld models are not required.
Therefore because it can function as an "alternate timeline" unless widely adopted it has the ability to move the plot forward.
What "fractal grouping" are you referring too? Each narrative point I put forward is based on the most logical application of the existing lore in a end of the scenario.
AGPO:
They’ve now said it is not an alternative timeline, it’s the continuation of the warhammer setting (although they have back and forthed on this one). This is something that’s going to cause a lot of fanrage as it is, but if you tear up the Empire, you p*** off every Empire player who has carefully built up their army and background. It would be like Imperial Armour releasing a book saying the Ultramarines and Dark Angels had been wiped out during some campaign or another. Killing off characters is one thing, but to follow that structure you’d tear up the better part of the current army book range, not to mention taking any suspense out of your main setting as everyone knows what’s going to happen.
As for the book structure, there’s going to be eight of them detailing this particular campaign. There are four brothers who follow Chaos, each one gets two books. Tamurkhan is the Nurgle following brother coming from the East. From what I recall, it will be Khorne from the North and Slaanesh and Tzeentch from the South and West, although I can’t remember the order.
IMHO they went the wrong way with making this the future. What they should have done is gone back and explored a previous great incursion, maybe the great war against chaos. It would have given a chance to explore Kislev, the invasion of Ulthan and the cult of Slaanesh, The Norse Dwarfs, MAgnus the Pious and his crusade, and the formation of the colleges of magic.
IMHO
Breten:
As far as I understand the rumour from Games Day is that Slaanesh is in the second book, with Dark Elves and High Elves as the other armies featured in the book. Each book is to have the Forces of Chaos with a Destruction army and focus as well on an Order army. And the storyline is supposed to take place thousands of years in the future from the current storyline letting it ignore what’s in the current line of things.
A friend of mine who went o the Games Day in the UK and had some unfettered access to the WF guys and book. I hae photos of stuff that wasn’t seen elsewhere.
Drychnath:
I’m a touch curious as to the popularity of the “Khaine is really Khorne” and “Horned Rat is really Nurgle” thought processes.
As far as I can discern, these are interpolations from the perspective of Imperial scholars, within the fluff. I point out, it is also the position of Imperial scholars that the Skaven don’t actually exist, so I’m rather inclined to take it as deliberate muddying of the waters. I see no reason Forgeworld should depart from that standard, and even where they destroy whole factions, destroying their independent character seems a bit much.
Also, EIGHT books? Fascinating. With as much destruction as I had read from the summaries of the Tamurkhan content, I had presumed they simply gave a Nurgle champion the lead.
Does this indicate that Forgeworld is pushing ahead on abandoning the Empire-centric viewpoint of published materials? It’s a trend I’ve noticed, over time; both Fantasy and 40k seem to be following, in GWs stuff.
KingFisher:
I'm a touch curious as to the popularity of the "Khaine is really Khorne" and "Horned Rat is really Nurgle" thought processes.
As far as I can discern, these are interpolations from the perspective of Imperial scholars, within the fluff. I point out, it is also the position of Imperial scholars that the Skaven don't actually exist, so I'm rather inclined to take it as deliberate muddying of the waters. I see no reason Forgeworld should depart from that standard, and even where they destroy whole factions, destroying their independent character seems a bit much.
Also, EIGHT books? Fascinating. With as much destruction as I had read from the summaries of the Tamurkhan content, I had presumed they simply gave a Nurgle champion the lead.
Does this indicate that Forgeworld is pushing ahead on abandoning the Empire-centric viewpoint of published materials? It's a trend I've noticed, over time; both Fantasy and 40k seem to be following, in GWs stuff.
Drychnath
The X God is really God Y fits with what we understand of how the Gods in warhammer get their power. Through the actions and emotions of mortals. There cannot be an God of war/murder besides Khorne since all war fuels Khorne the elves may know him as Khaine but he is Khorne. The same is truth with nurgle and the skaven and Tzeentch with Hashut. Not really sure how the brets lady of the lake fits in probably Slaanesh playing "the Madonna".
If the story really does take place outside of the present time line as an alternate or distant future it presents the perfect opportunity for FW to go crazy and reveal this truth and radically alter the story line. If people like it then it becomes the new WHFB if not it gets forgotten like "New Coke".
Merchant:
I still see the new books as “counter”-parts to the Siege of Vraks trilogi, so part of what you say make alot of sense to me - that about some small update along the way to previous books.
But as many has already said, I don’t think there will be a CD “only” armylist - but they will play a bigger part in this new campaign.
AGPO:
The Khaine is Khorne stuff has been retconned more times than I can remember. First he is, then he isn’t, then it’s hinted at. The Eldar pantheon having the same names as the Warhammer Elven pantheon, but divergent backgrounds doesn’t help either.
KingFisher:
I still see the new books as "counter"-parts to the Siege of Vraks trilogi, so part of what you say make alot of sense to me - that about some small update along the way to previous books.
But as many has already said, I don't think there will be a CD "only" armylist - but they will play a bigger part in this new campaign.
Merchant
Our hope here is that there will be a variety of chaos dwarf war machines.
The component parts of these machines would be synthesized into a new list. For example the rumored "Blunderbuss" crewed tower would allow us to distill out the rules for blunderbuss chaos dwarf warriors. The same could be said for any other units perhaps a new type of elite infantry that guards the trains. Or updated hoboblins as part of the forces that come over the mountains of mourne with the ogres. Make sense?
There wont be a whole new Chaos dwarf army book, however all the parts could be deduced out of the new material when combined with the new OnG book.
Drychnath:
The X God is really God Y fits with what we understand of how the Gods in warhammer get their power. Through the actions and emotions of mortals. There cannot be an God of war/murder besides Khorne since all war fuels Khorne the elves may know him as Khaine but he is Khorne. The same is truth with nurgle and the skaven and Tzeentch with Hashut. Not really sure how the brets lady of the lake fits in probably Slaanesh playing "the Madonna".
If the story really does take place outside of the present time line as an alternate or distant future it presents the perfect opportunity for FW to go crazy and reveal this truth and radically alter the story line. If people like it then it becomes the new WHFB if not it gets forgotten like "New Coke".
KingFisher
Aha, there's the rub. I suggest that it is the assertion that there can be no other gods that share traits with the Big Four that presents the problem, here. The distinguishing characteristic of the Big Four is that they are "big tent" gods - their awesome power is derived from the shared fundamental emotions of all sentient creatures. This in no way precludes other gods from existing or having similar powers and traits, especially in more refined form. I submit as an immediate example from within the Chaos books (nearly all of them) the mention of Daemon Princes so powerful as to be minor deities in their own right. And mention frequently has come up in older publications (though less so now with the highly stratified Realm of Chaos) of other entities of power outside the defined hierarchy of Chaos creatures as we have them in the game.
Other examples include the sharing of the trait of ambition amongst the Four; they apportion mortals amongst themselves based on method and objective, more than anything else. Furthermore, they cooperate in the elevation of Undivided Champions.
On the subject of the Siege of Vraks books as a pattern, they did include complete army lists for the contending factions. If that's the pattern, we can reasonably expect a Chaos Dwarf list to be presented.
cornixt:
It’s easier if you think of all Chaos Gods as being part of the Big One, which can be split into four overlapping sections, and each of those can be split further into more overlapping sections.
KingFisher:
Right, even a demon of God X is still under that god even if it is worshiped as a minor god. This is seen in the lore for the WF WoC Mammoth. That demon was brought under the control of the big 4 because of its rebellion.
Either way if you going to create an end of the world/massive reshaping storyline I think what I have laid out is a pretty logical way of doing it based on the lore.
Nothing I suggest radically changes the way the game is played or forces players to abandon their armies. It just gives players more flavor or narrative to explore.
At the end of my scenario there have been some reshuffles of territory and power but it sets up some really exciting options.
The war hammer world is not steady state for the lore to move forward there have to be significant changes and upheavals.
Drychnath:
Granted, but essentially super-condensing all the known deities into their fundamental aspects in the reflections-of-the-Four theory seems like it limits options rather than enhances them. Though I do confess, as I write this, a consistent background narrative concerning the dissolution and corruption of all the other known religions would be an intriguing side note to the destruction of the Old World.
Do we actually have any indications Forgeworld is tackling anything so fundamental as playing out a fictional metaphysical theory?
Also, vote for the tower. I do adore siege towers, and as such, a steam or Daemon tower war engine would be dearly loved.
Merchant:
then we are one the same page on this, it is all fine with me 