[Archive] Balance in Tamurkhan Rules?

jbrown1214:

I got into a small debate with someone on another site who claimed that FW rules are “always horrible” and that nobody would play because their models are always under-costed and over-powered. I did a bit of research on some other sites and didn’t really get this sense, but never asked here. What are your views? They strike me as fairly balanced (if a bit light on choices), but I’m not a CD expert…

Jason

aka_mythos:

CD are a case of individual units aren’t well balanced, with many having very skewed cost-to-benefit point values; some to our benefit some against. The list however is pretty well balanced by virtue of where the imbalances are, the mandatory core choices we all have to take are bit over priced. Because of that higher than reasonable Core cost from the start you’re in an uphill battle to regain cost-effectiveness, but units like the magma cannon, destroyer, and deathshrieker rockets go a long way to mitigating that. The rest of the units are pretty spot on in cost, though they can be conditional in when you’d choose to take them.

Bitterman:

FW rules had that reputation to begin with, but (whether because they thought this reputation would adversely affect sales or for some other reason, who knows) they seemed to make an effort to go in the other direction, ie. defaulting to making things slightly under-powered and over-costed.

Consensus for the LoA CDs in particular seems to be that the basic troops, at least, are overcosted. The K’daai Destroyer is somewhat controversial. Most of the rest of it seems about right.

But this other guy, whoever he was… well, if he doesn’t want to play against FW stuff I suppose it’s up to him, but it’s all “official rules” nowadays so there’s no basis for it. Certainly no-one in my gaming group refuses to play against my CDs or any of my other FW stuff, in fact most of us have some, for one army or another. If he and his gaming group have a different view I guess that’s up to them… they’re entitled to it… not sure where he gets “nobody would play against them” from though, that might be his view but he has no place ascribing it to anyone else.

ChungEssence:

FW got that reputation with their 40k stuff.

Overall the CD’s are fine. Destroyer and Magma cannon are very overpowered though. The rest is fine

gIL^:

Everyone i know loves playing cd’s Ive had comments like “Atleast their not Dark Elves or Daemons” Which are all over the place.

I think it’s balenced, Kdaii Destroyer is horrible though, I don’t think i will take it.

aka_mythos:

FW got that reputation with their 40k stuff.

ChungEssence
While FW got their reputation from their 40k stuff, it was always unfounded. Anyone who ever actually used FW's rules for 40k would realize very quickly that everything was overpriced. FW got a reputation for being overpowered based solely on people using superheavy vehicles in conventionally sized games, this isn't an option any more and they generally require you to play Apocalypse battles now. The only other major contributor is a relatively recent addition, the Land Raider Ares, but everyones opinion was based on the free play test rules and not the finalized rules that were only recently released.
Overall the CD's are fine. Destroyer and Magma cannon are very overpowered though. The rest is fine.

ChungEssence
I tend think these units being underpriced balance with the fact that our Core, Infernal guard and Hobgoblin cutthroats and their options are a bit overpriced, in addition to the options for unit champions. How much pricier would you make them to compensate for their current level of power?-Me, I'd say Magma cannon by an extra +20pts, Destroyer +50pts maybe. With the way I build my basic IG w/GW I tend to think they're 20-30pts overpriced. Abstractly, that means I'm looking only for another 40pts overprice to have cost balanced army.

Zuh-Khinie:

I have to support aka_mythos in his summary… our core is heavily overpriced, our warmachines are normally priced, and the k’daai destroyer… well, it is what it is right? :smiley:

Now, as with everything FW, these rules can be stretched and abused as much as you want. If you read the rules closely, it states that everything in the CD list can be added to the existing WoC list… This is heavily overpowered. I would have no problem playing against a CD or a WoC army, but a mixed army would be kind of beardy (though legal). You can take cheap and hardhitting chaos core, and fill it up with CD warmachines and ofcourse a destroyer.

It’s that one phrase in the book that I have a real problem with… but as long as people don’t field an army like that, there’s nothing wrong with CDs.

jbrown1214:

I have to support aka_mythos in his summary... our core is heavily overpriced, our warmachines are normally priced, and the k'daai destroyer... well, it is what it is right? :D

Now, as with everything FW, these rules can be stretched and abused as much as you want. If you read the rules closely, it states that everything in the CD list can be added to the existing WoC list... This is heavily overpowered. I would have no problem playing against a CD or a WoC  army, but a mixed army would be kind of beardy (though legal). You can take cheap and hardhitting chaos core, and fill it up with CD warmachines and ofcourse a destroyer.

It's that one phrase in the book that I have a real problem with... but as long as people don't field an army like that, there's nothing wrong with CDs.

Zuh-Khinie
Since I plan at first to do exactly what you're referring to--use CD warmachines in my WoC army--I'm wondering what the major concern is? I wouldn't call chaos warriors "cheap" by any stretch...they probably are the most capable core unit in the game, but aren't exactly small change points-wise. Personally, I really dislike marauders, and won't be using 'em. Plus, we can already field one piece of CD artillery: the Hellcannon. I've been known to field two in a 3,000 point game; why not be able to replace them with an iron demon and dreadquake? They even cost more points!

Baggronor:

Controversially perhaps, I think the Destroyer’s points are fine. It can still get killed by war machines fairly easily (tougher than other monsters but still perfectly possible) and it does wound itself on average every game. Its rare for it to survive all 6 turns and often gets neutralised by chaff. At first my club were up in arms about it too, but now they’ve calmed down a bit and can see how to deal with it.

Since I plan at first to do exactly what you’re referring to–use CD warmachines in my WoC army–I’m wondering what the major concern is?
A wall of Halberd-toting Khorne Chaos Warriors and a Lv4 Shadow Sorcerer backed up by 3 Magma Cannons and a Destroyer? Yeah, it would worry me…

Gammal:

Ok, I have some semi-official word here.

The CD list in the book is official in every sense of the word, you can play it at any GW event etc, you all know this.

Now, that (as I understand it) is only true for a full CD army, not a WoC+CD one.

Its exactly the same with the other characters and for example the empire stuff.

These rules are fluff rules, and are not meant for competitive/balanced play.

If you want to play with WoC and the CD, I would strongly advice to talk it over with your gaming partner, and make sure he is prepared for the hard hitting army of WoC backed up by Warmachines.

I would not play you, nor would anyone I play with, it may be different in your group though.

Just think about it.

2 groups of Warriors, 5-10 knights, a hellcannon, a Destroyer and Warmachines… That my good sir… would be really nasty.

jbrown1214:

Ok, I have some semi-official word here.
The CD list in the book is official in every sense of the word, you can play it at any GW event etc, you all know this.
Now, that (as I understand it) is only true for a full CD army, not a WoC+CD one.

Its exactly the same with the other characters and for example the empire stuff.
These rules are fluff rules, and are not meant for competitive/balanced play.

If you want to play with WoC and the CD, I would strongly advice to talk it over with your gaming partner, and make sure he is prepared for the hard hitting army of WoC backed up by Warmachines.

I would not play you, nor would anyone I play with, it may be different in your group though.
Just think about it.
2 groups of Warriors, 5-10 knights, a hellcannon, a Destroyer and Warmachines.... That my good sir... would be really nasty.

Gammal
Come on, now, let's play by Warhammer rules! How many total points would be required to field that kind of force, which isn't even legal? You are talking close to between 1,000 and 1,500 points of Special and Rare choices alone (because you didn't specify what "warmachines" entailed). Simply saying "5-10 knights" could equal between 250 to more than 500 points! Frankly, if we were playing a 3,000 or 4,000 point game, I can think of a number of armies who could give such a "joint" list a real run for its money (Skaven, for one).

Regarding whether the WoC/CD list; please show me in the book where it says "the CD is completely legal, whereas the joint rules...well, not really". They are both spelled out as clear options in the book; or are you saying--in true Orwellian fashion--that all rules are equal, but some rules are more equal than others?

Jason

Bitterman:

If you read the rules closely, it states that everything in the CD list can be added to the existing WoC list...

Zuh-Khinie
No it doesn't. That's simply untrue.

You can take certain units (a specific list is given) but in each case you must take a Daemonsmith to go with it; this adds to the points investment and helps to balance things out. IIRC (at this point I must admit I'm going by memory) a Destroyer cannot be taken in a WoC army, period. A Magma Cannon (for example) can, but you also have to pay for the Daemonsmith. It is emphatically not as simple as "take your normal WoC army and add as many Chaos Dwarf war machines as you like".

Zuh-Khinie:

You are correct, but only if you play the specific Tamurkhan rules where you also add deamons or such to your army. Read the first paragraph closely… It is as simple as “take you your normal WoC army and add as many Chaos Dwarf war machines as you like.” It truly is all in that first few sentences… I’ve had this discussion with loads of people, and after they’ve read through it carefully, looking at the interpunction (or how do you call it in english) and whatnot, they’ve all come to the same conclusion.

tvandyke:

Regarding whether the WoC/CD list; please show me in the book where it says "the CD is completely legal, whereas the joint rules...well, not really". They are both spelled out as clear options in the book; or are you saying--in true Orwellian fashion--that all rules are equal, but some rules are more equal than others?

Jason

jbrown1214
Page 105. It talks about all the new Warhammer Bestiary entries that can be added to existing army books as part of the Tamurkhan campaign, then says "As well as all this, also included in this section is a Chaos Dwarf army list for the grim Legion of Azgorh. This should be considered an official army list for Warhammer". I think just about everyone takes that to mean that the only thing official in the whole Tamukhan book is the Chaos Dwarf list as a stand alone army. Everything else pertains to the campaign and would be considered unofficial. The biggest tournament we have here in California is the Quake City Rumble (held in San Francisco). They're actually allowing Daemons to use the Plague Riders (toads), Warriors to use the Nurgle Trolls, but won't allow Warriors to use the Chaos Dwarfs. The Chaos Dwarfs have to be used as a stand alone force only. So while they're allowing some things that are considered unofficial from the book, they know a Warrrior/Chaos Dwarf army might be a bit much.

Bitterman:

You are correct, but only if you play the specific Tamurkhan rules where you also add deamons or such to your army. Read the first paragraph closely... It is as simple as "take you your normal WoC army and add as many Chaos Dwarf war machines as you like." It truly is all in that first few sentences... I've had this discussion with loads of people, and after they've read through it carefully, looking at the interpunction (or how do you call it in english) and whatnot, they've all come to the same conclusion.

Zuh-Khinie
And yet amazingly they're all wrong... Do they all have English as a second language? That's the only reason I can think of, as it's crystal clear. This is the entire section.
Using Chaos Dwarf Units in Warriors of Chaos Armies
As mercenaries and weapon smiths, the Chaos Dwarfs are known to sell their services to the hosts of the north in return for slaves, souls and plunder. To represent this, the following Legion of Azgorh units can be taken as part of a Warriors of Chaos army using the options listed.


If you are fielding a combined force utilising the Great Host options on page 132, those options take precedence and the following options should not be used.

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer-Prophets, Daemonsmiths and Castellans may be purchased as part of the army's Character allowance (as Lords or Heroes as listed) as long as at least one other non-character unit of Chaos Dwarfs, including war machines etc, is also taken. Chaos Dwarf characters may not be the army General (and so at least one character from the Warriors of Chaos list must be taken).

One unit of Chaos Dwarf Infernals may be taken as a Special choice for every Sorcerer-Prophet or Daemonsmith also taken in the army. Magma Cannons, Deathshrieker Rockets, Iron Daemons and Dreadquake Mortars may be taken as Rare choices in the army.It couldn't be any clearer. The first paragraph says yes, you can take some units in a WoC army, as follows. The second paragraph applies only to Great Hosts - ignore it. The third and fourth paragraphs tell you what units you can take, with what restrictions.

Destroyers are not mentioned. Neither are Fireborn, Bull Centaurs, Hobgoblins of any kind, Bull Centaurs, Ironsworn and possibly some other stuff I've missed too. Therefore you cannot take any of those units in a WoC army, period. The units I've highlighted in red are the only units you can take (and they're Special instead of Core and Rare instead of Special, and there are additional restrictions too). It's right there in print! How you get from that to "you can take whatever you want" - and how you've managed to convince other people of the same thing by telling them to "read it closely" - I just don't know; it's simply wrong, and completely contradicted by the rules as printed in very clear English.

Incidentally... this is taken from the "Legion of Azgorh" section of the book. There's nothing to indicate that it's any less official than any of the other rules printed on the same double-page spread.

Zuh-Khinie:

The GW-manager here in Antwerp, whom I talked it over with is brittish… so no, he has english as his first language.

Secondly, if I’m not mistaken (I don’t have the book at hand because I’m at work right now), the book states that:

Using Chaos Dwarf Units in Warriors of Chaos Armies
As mercenaries and weapon smiths, the Chaos Dwarfs are known to sell their services to the hosts of the north in return for slaves, souls and plunder. To represent this, the following Legion of Azgorh units can be taken as part of a Warriors of Chaos army using the options listed.

If you are fielding a combined force utilising the Great Host options on page 132, those options take precedence and the following options should not be used: (edit: sorry, but you can hardly see what I’ve coloured… it’s the : that makes all the difference here)

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer-Prophets, Daemonsmiths and Castellans may be purchased as part of the army’s Character allowance (as Lords or Heroes as listed) as long as at least one other non-character unit of Chaos Dwarfs, including war machines etc, is also taken. Chaos Dwarf characters may not be the army General (and so at least one character from the Warriors of Chaos list must be taken).

One unit of Chaos Dwarf Infernals may be taken as a Special choice for every Sorcerer-Prophet or Daemonsmith also taken in the army. Magma Cannons, Deathshrieker Rockets, Iron Daemons and Dreadquake Mortars may be taken as Rare choices in the army.

Correct me if I’m wrong (once again, I don’t have the book at hand here), but that does imply that the first paragraph says that you can field whatever you want with you WoC, as it is listed in the armylist, but if you’re planning in taking demons etc. as well, you look at what’s still available for an army using the Great Host options.

Anyhow, I’m not planning om running WoC with CDs, but it’s this kind of things that give FWrules such a bad name… I think we’ll be able to agree on that :slight_smile:

Thommy H:

You can only use the units specified in that box in a WoC army. For good measure, the army list also tells you which ones you can include in little boxes next to the relevant entries.

Zuh-Khinie:

All I can say is that I’ve run it through with my local (british) GW-manager, who explained it to me as I’ve explained it above… The chaos-crowd in the store went wild (and bought/ordered the book, which might be the real clue after all), the rest not so.

Bitterman:

The colon does not reverse the fact that the second paragraph says the following options should not be used.

If the first paragraph says you can take anything… and the second paragraph says “in a Great Host, ignore the next two paragraphs”… what do the third and fourth paragraphs apply to? What are they there for - just to waste ink? At what time do they apply, if not in a Great Host, and not not in a Great Host?

Very obviously, the first paragraph is intended to be read with the third and fourth. (The second being there to tell you when not to use these rules). That’s why it’s all in one boxed section. This isn’t what gives FW/WF rules a bad name - it is perfectly clear. This is what gives rules lawyers a bad name, trying to get a meaning from the text that is the complete opposite to what is printed.

Zuh-Khinie:

Look here Bitterman, I’ve been a tournament organiser for many tournaments held by shops in the vicinity of my home town. I’ve won many sportsmanship prizes during my years of battling, and I’m not liking the sound of you implying I’m a rules lawyer.

Nor would I ever choose to field WoC with CD’s, because I think it’s beardy, as I’ve stated in one of my posts above.

The rules were explained to me by a native english speaking GW-employee with decades of experience in this hobby. It might be that he’s wrong and you’re right, or the other way around, I actually don’t care. This is exactly why FW gets a bad name, because it IS unclear, maybe not to you, and you’ll play it however you want to play it. But this is how it’s played in my local store…

I don’t tend to visit there often because of this sort of thing (I hate mathhammer, power-playing and all things related), but unless you go out there and convince the world otherwise, you’ll see this kind of army popping up more regularly than you’d think.