Baggronor:
Sure, all the big new toys they seem to put out might be equally as "overpowered" as each other, so it's all fair, right? Well, maybe fair, but not much fun when the entire army I've spent months painting gets wiped out because they've taken one unit that I theoretically could have countered but never got the chance to and it's powerful enough to win the game on its own if not countered. (This is especially true when the unit in question does have a weakness, but if you've not read the army book cover to cover five times you won't notice it).
There is basically nothing in the 8th ed books which is auto-win, certainly not compared to 7th. 'Overpowered' is a relative term, so everything can't be overpowered. Stuff dies more than before, yes, but that's the same for everyone; the answer is usually 'take bigger units'.
However... I tend to have the most fun when my opponent is having fun too.
In my experience, people are a lot happier in 8th than in 7th. I certainly am :)
Zhorn:
Everything Baggronor said, plus the ability to tone down at will from a perceived “powerful” book, while tuning up is not possible if the rules do not support that (i have a friend who plays one of the dreaded Dark Elf armies - albeit he mostly uses RXBs, spearmen, dark riders and assassins. No cauldron, no hydra, no witchbombs. Hardly the army which will give you a “trashing”).
gIL^:
It’s easy to make a LOA list that is sick tough, So it’s our respoabuility to make a list we would like to play and at the same time play against.
I wouldn’t blame a stranger to get alittle frustrated if you threw on a table double hellcannon & tri Iron Daemon, With extra nastys like 30 hobgob archer units a block of infernal guard and heavy magic user. All legal but would you like to play it?
So yes LOA can be unbalanced but isn’t every list if you deem it so?
jbrown1214:
If you read the rules closely, it states that everything in the CD list can be added to the existing WoC list...
Zuh-Khinie
No it doesn't. That's simply untrue.
You can take certain units (a specific list is given) but in each case you must take a Daemonsmith to go with it; this adds to the points investment and helps to balance things out. IIRC (at this point I must admit I'm going by memory) a Destroyer cannot be taken in a WoC army, period. A Magma Cannon (for example) can, but you also have to pay for the Daemonsmith. It is emphatically not as simple as "take your normal WoC army and add as many Chaos Dwarf war machines as you like".
Bitterman
I hope I don't get flamed, but the argument that for EACH special or rare CD unit to be added to a WoC army a Daemonsmith must be added has been bugging me. Just to clear up any descrepancy, I finally got around to contacting ForgeWorld. This was my original question:
I read through the Tamurkhan book as well as the Q&A, but couldn't come up with a clear answer for the question: do I need to have a CD hero (castellan, etc.) for EACH unit/warmachine I add to my WoC army, or one for the entire CD contingent. In other words, if I wanted to field an Iron Daemon, a Dreadquake Mortar, and a unit of Infernal Guard as special/rare choices, would I only require one CD hero, or three? The former seems to make a lot more sense, but wanted to check...And here is ForgeWorld's response, received today:
Hi,
It depends entirely, on if you are creating a Great host list from the Tamurkhan book, or just wanting to field a couple of Chaos Dwarf units in a standard Chaos Warrior army.
If you are using the Great Host list, then use the rules listed in the Tamurkhan book. If you are just adding items to a Warriors of Chaos army, then you need to do the following -
1. If you want to field a unit of Infernal Guard, then you have to take a Chaod Dwarf character
2. If you want to field an Iron Daemon, Dreadquake Mortar etc as you asked about, then you do not have to take a character.
3. So, you said that you wanted to field a unit of Infernal Guard, an Iron Daemon and a Dreadquake Mortar, then you would have to field a character because of the Infernal Guard. If you decided not to field the Infernal Guard, you would not have to take a chaos Dwarf Character if you did not want to.
Regards
Forge World The bottom line is that a daemonsmith/castellan is only required for a CD infantry unit, not war machines. I'm not saying this to start up a disagreement again, but only because it appears that there is still a certain degree of uncertainty regarding how the LoA can/cannot be integrated into a WoC army. Which I still contend is not "broken" if only people would read the rules, but still...:D
Jason
Thommy H:
I’m 90% sure that’s not what it says in the book, but I’ll check when I get home.
jbrown1214:
I'm 90% sure that's not what it says in the book, but I'll check when I get home.
Thommy H
Er, it isn't the most clearly-worded passage - I'm looking at it now, and a simple clause or turning the last sentence that says "Magma cannons, deathshrieker rockets, iron daemons and dredquake mortars may be taken as rare choices in the army" into a separate paragraph, but I'm going to go with ForgeWorld on this one! Plus, it wouldn't make any sense game (or fluff) wise...if I wanted five CD war machines in my WoC army, would I just have five Daemonsmith/Castellans standing around? That would be ridiculous!
Bitterman:
I hope I don't get flamed, but the argument that for EACH special or rare CD unit to be added to a WoC army a Daemonsmith must be added has been bugging me. ... The bottom line is that a daemonsmith/castellan is only required for a CD infantry unit, not war machines.
jbrown1214
Yes, I was working from memory when I used the word "each" in that post, and that's not actually the case having checked the book. The list of units which need a Daemonsmith is very specific - just as the list of units available
at all is very specific; it's not free choice, which is the main point I was making, and most important.
Thommy H:
Yeah, I’ve looked at the book now - glad I included that 10% of doubt. You need a character for each unit of Infernal Guard, but the war machines you can take can be included without a character, but you can only include characters if you have some units. I think I was mixing it up with the way it worked in the experimental rules, and also how you can’t included Fireborn or Destroyers in a LoA army without Daemonsmiths.
Bronze Bull:
For me Forge World added new things to the game when things got stale pretty quickly. The newer codexes (sp?) and Army Books actually add new units and vehicles with each new iteration but for a while I was tired of facing "Space marines with two tactical squads, terminators, a land raider, and assault squad."
They also add diversity to army lists like the Tau who don’t really have a broad selection to choose from. The new power suits look amazing and I love the new vehicles.
All in all I can sort of understand why some tournaments choose not to allow FW stuff because they want to avoid the headaches of dealing with players who hate it but when I play with friends we have friendly games. As long as the rules are well thought out we allow them at least once.
The Charioteer:
The throne of chaos rules look fine to me.
I have heard people complaining about over and undercosted minis, but it looks like it pans out ok. Take the fireglaives for example, the problem is that people compare them to handgunners. The unit i think they are most like is sea guard. And compared to them the pricing is fine.