wallacer:
It's just really sad that GW doesn't include base size as a stat for each unit. *sigh*I think they just do it to make it harder to proxy in other companies' miniatures.
Xander
Thommy H:
It's just really sad that GW doesn't include base size as a stat for each unit. *sigh*No, it's fine - if it doesn't have enough of an effect in the game to justify a difference in points cost, it doesn't matter. The advantages or disadvantages of having a larger or smaller base are so minuscule as to be irrelevant on the scale of a wargame.
Xander
And, for the record, there's actually a unit of monstrous beasts that come on cavalry bases - Sabertusks taken with a scroll of binding. Weirdly, they've morphed into war beasts in the Ogre Kingdoms book and - would you believe it? - cost the same anyway.
So it doesn't matter.
lostmember:
Two or three extra models (with the extra rank now fighting) able to attack your miniatures would seem to make a fairly significant difference.
If your unit of 3 40mm Bull Centaurs charges an Orc horde you’ll receive many fewer return attacks than your unit of 3 BCs on 50mm bases will. It could cost you a unit, and a battle. I’ll put mine on 50mm, because it looks better now I’ve had a look at them, but it does have an effect on the game.
Thommy H:
GW apparently disagree - otherwise the points costs would reflect it. Why do Marauders cost the same as Swordsmen? Why isn’t a Zombie Dragon now a different cost because it’s on a massive Arachnarok base?
fonejaker:
For those who dont know it has a designer note on the kdaii destroyer page saying “if you want to make one it will go on an aracnarok base”
Ugly Green Trog:
Ahh not spotted that fonejaker nice one. Shame they couldnt have added simillar notes for the other stuff they don’t produce a model for.
lostmember:
GW apparently disagree - otherwise the points costs would reflect it. Why do Marauders cost the same as Swordsmen? Why isn't a Zombie Dragon now a different cost because it's on a massive Arachnarok base?Games Workshop agreeing doesn't change that base size affects how many people can hit you; thus making more/less killable to any given unit.
Thommy H
Thommy H:
No, but they’re the ones who decide the value of units relative to one another by assigning points costs. Since they don’t seem to think radically changing a unit’s base size is enough reason to change its points cost, they clearly don’t think it affects the game that much. Again, the new Zombie Dragon model is on a base about four times the size of the old one, and it still uses the exact same entry in the Vampire Counts book. That massive new base is not even worth a single point either way.
The bottom line is this: the designers of the game do not think base size makes a measurable difference to Warhammer. And if you can’t measure something, it doesn’t exist.
So everyone is welcome to obsess over getting it right, but the GW design studio evidently don’t even give such minutiae a second thought.
lostmember:
I’m not sure it’s a question of getting it right or wrong, but there doesn’t seem to be much to argue against the idea that larger bases mean more things can attack them. If that’s the case, then it necessarily does affect things. Now, whether that difference can be (or is worth being) related to points cost was not really the point. However, even if you can say it’s not quantifiable in terms of points; it seems daft to say it makes no difference at all.
wallacer:
The main problem with larger bases for something like a Destroyer is that it makes them harder to wheel and it makes them a lot easier for cannons to hit.
If I could get away with putting it on a 50mm base I would.
fonejaker:
The main problem with larger bases for something like a Destroyer is that it makes them harder to wheel and it makes them a lot easier for cannons to hit.the destroyer is the most horrible thing in the army
If I could get away with putting it on a 50mm base I would.
wallacer
the game i had a few days ago, it charged 5 chaos knights, (they all died), then charged into a unit of 30chaos warriors with a lord (they took two turns to kill)
it finished the game having made it points back and not being wounded,
the trick is not to charge it at something that could hurt it, go for the soft stuff
Thommy H:
I'm not sure it's a question of getting it right or wrong, but there doesn't seem to be much to argue against the idea that larger bases mean more things can attack them. If that's the case, then it necessarily does affect things. Now, whether that difference can be (or is worth being) related to points cost was not really the point. However, even if you can say it's not quantifiable in terms of points; it seems daft to say it makes no difference at all.But points costs is the only variable in the game that measures whether something has an effect or not. By definition, it determines what has an effect on the balance of Warhammer, because it's what the balance is. To say something can make a difference to whether a unit is more or less powerful without that being reflected in the points is like saying that something has a length, but you can't measure it in metres. Points are what makes balance happen.
lostmember
I know I'm getting a bit esoteric here, but I genuinely can't see why people obsess over base size when it self-evidently has no effect on how fair the game is. The only concern is aesthetic.
lostmember:
I know I'm getting a bit esoteric here, but I genuinely can't see why people obsess over base size when it self-evidently has no effect on how fair the game is. The only concern is aesthetic.Oh I'm not suggesting it affects how fair anything is. I have no issue with marauders being on 25mm and swordsmen on 20mm, for example; because they're in different armies. But I wouldn't want to put swordsmen on 25mm bases, because I'd get fewer attacks in many combats, or take more hits. The same with BCs. If they 'should' be on 40mm, you're probably better off than having them on 50mm.....but as mine are too large for 40mm I'll put them on larger bases.
Thommy H
If we take a reductio approach to your argument, we might wish to say that a unit of swordsmen on 40mm bases would operate no differently to a unit on 20mm bases. If this is not the case, then clearly base size does indeed have an effect. If we accept that, then why would we say 40mm to 50mm makes no difference? It may make a much smaller difference, but it's still there.
cornixt:
The base size DOES have an effect, the fact that GW choose to ignore that effect, or considers it to be insignificant enough to not bother with when changing the models (or maybe even seriously considers it in every case and has decided not to change anything in every case so far), does not mean anything.
Baggronor:
The advantages or disadvantages of having a larger or smaller base are so minuscule as to be irrelevant on the scale of a wargame.It does make a difference though - particularly for the Destroyer. Auto str4 hits for everyone in base contact means the difference between 50mm width and 100mm is a bunch of extra hits. Against troops like elves, that's a noticeable amount of extra casualties, particularly if you're an evil bar steward like me who will turn his Destroyer's flank to them after the first round of combat to get more free hits.
A new Zombie Dragon-sized base is also much easier to hit with a war machine than a 50x50. You basically can't miss it with Dwarf artillery.
GW may not charge points for base size, as its such a vague and incalculable quality, but I think it does make an in-game difference. Same as model size and true LoS.
Steve D:
An evil bar steward and illegal - you can't reform and change facing (I assume that's what you are referring to) - see the latest GW rule book FAQ errata section.The advantages or disadvantages of having a larger or smaller base are so minuscule as to be irrelevant on the scale of a wargame.It does make a difference though - particularly for the Destroyer. Auto str4 hits for everyone in base contact means the difference between 50mm width and 100mm is a bunch of extra hits. Against troops like elves, that's a noticeable amount of extra casualties, particularly if you're an evil bar steward like me who will turn his Destroyer's flank to them after the first round of combat to get more free hits.
A new Zombie Dragon-sized base is also much easier to hit with a war machine than a 50x50. You basically can't miss it with Dwarf artillery.
GW may not charge points for base size, as its such a vague and incalculable quality, but I think it does make an in-game difference. Same as model size and true LoS.
Baggronor
I would have thought it would have been on a chariot base mind like the Abom.
aka_mythos:
I think the GW game designers simply assume that for every advantage of base size there is a roughly equal disadvantage. That the consistency on a unit-to-unit basis isn’t so important when the majority of armies have such slightly advantaged or disadvantaged units… and so they see it balanced on different level of the rules than points and stats. At the same time there are exception, like the destroyer where there is a clearly significant advantage to its base size because of the nature of its special rules, but in all cases special rules are a step beyond base size and stats. Its important that we use the correct sized base, but what that base size is shouldn’t matter that significantly unless the unit in question is an exception.
Thommy H:
Well, the FW rules are a different beast altogether because they’re not written by the main studio - as we’ve already seen, some of them are a bit wonky. And I do agree that there’s a literal difference made by base size, I’m just arguing that it’s not a big enough deal for everyone to get so worked up about. If the guys who (literally) balance the books don’t care about it, maybe it’s not that important after all.
wallacer:
I’m not so much concerned about base size because of game balance or points issues.
I’m concerned about it because I don’t want to waste my time basing miniatures only to find out later that i have to rebase them because they’re on the wrong sized base.
Thommy H:
But that’s my point: it doesn’t actually matter that much if they’re not on the “right” sized base. Is everyone rushing to rebase their old Zombie Dragon models since the new one came out?
Maybe it’s just me. I haven’t rebased my Bull Centaurs - I only repainted them a few months ago!