Wow, I didn’t mean to start such a firestorm, I agree it does seem a bit powerful, though most of my opponents have been finding ways to deal with it(frenzy baiting, fitting magic attacks into their army, poision etc…)
To try and help clear this up I e-mailed GW about the Taurus in SoM(figure they might actually respond to a question about their own book instead of a FW one) I simply went to FW first since it was their book and I figured they would know how they intended the monster to work.
Yeah, it literally has no weakness, apart from its frenzy. I played against my mate’s TKs yesterday, and he managed to kill it with massed bowfire (and I mean seriously massed) after it munched a sphinx. If its immune to str 4 or less, then it would have been an automatic 20-0 to me, as his flaming catapults sure as hell weren’t going to kill it and none of his units stood a chance in melee.
Armies that have chaff can divert it, which is the best response, but a smart CD player will have brought tools to dispose of the chaff asap.
Mine has been having a tough time, the store has a few tough customers out there. Hammers, terrorgeist, dwarf cannons, 40+ poison attacks from ghoul hordes, GW ogre heroes in S4 units just in case… I have to be quite careful with the thing or its over 300pts down the drain for little gain.
People adapt to new armies, the best example I can think of is a few years ago when my Dark Eldar ran into a full Terminator army, I simply couldn’t handle that-I got my arse kicked and it was entirely my fault. Didn’t matter that no one runs that build, doesn’t matter I’d never faced it before, it was my fault for not planning ahead with a balanced build that could handle it.
People might not know how we roll just yet, but they will figure it out rather quickly.
So, what I’m hearing in this thread is that it’s alright that we have an unbalanced rape-train of a Daemon monster, because everyone has a way to deal with it. Like those two flammable treemen. Yep. Two guys that on average die before they get to attack back. Man, that’ll show the fire daemon whose boss.
The rule is pretty obviously unbalanced. The Kdaii are too good to begin with; making them utterly immune to infantry, crossbow/bowfire/handguns only harms our cause, as Baggronor said.
Is it just me then that is having 2/3 wounds knocked off by failing the Toughness tests??? Or having it redirected by the pesky eagles/sabretusks/etc?
While it may not be harmed by S3/4 might seem a big thing, remember also that a 5/10 point magic item and careful character placing can reduce it’s effectiveness a lot…
And since it is Unstable you cannot throw it into any combat without some consideration…
The rule is pretty obviously unbalanced. The Kdaii are too good to begin with; making them utterly immune to infantry, crossbow/bowfire/handguns only harms our cause, as Baggronor said.
khedyarl
You mean the same immune etherals gain vs. crossbow/bowfire/handguns? Or mundane strength 6? Or mundane strength 10?
I agree that it will hurt our cause - but that's because of perception: we gamers are a conservative lot when it comes to our favourite past time. We don't like change.
On the table that's a harsh rule, making the very good destroyer even better. But it doesn't destroy the game, same as the vampire etherals didn't destroy the game.
And, sure, some armies have worse ways to deal with it than others - but that's true for every "hard model". My own destroyer got killed by magic, by combat resolution, plain old cannon fire, and monster killer heroes.
I think every army has ways to deal with it, but the outcries of rage will give the Legion of Azgorh a bad name, that's for sure.
You mean the same immune etherals gain vs. crossbow/bowfire/handguns?
When Vampires get a high Strength, high Toughness monster that does automatic Strength 4 hits to anything it touches, can only be outrun by a Unicorn and is Ethereal, we'll talk.
Again, the issue is not the rule in general, it's the model to which it's applied. This isn't actually so bad on the Great Taurus in SoM, because that's a monster you can take a maximum of two of, and it's designed for use in games where there's lots of incredibly powerful spells bouncing around. But the Destroyer is already ridiculously hard, so making it arbitrarily immune to Warhammer's baseline Strength value only makes it worse. As Baggronor said, it took the massed bowfire of an entire Tomb Kings army to bring it down in his recent game and, if immune to that, it would have been literally unstoppable. That's against the second newest army in the game, so how many tricks are the older books likely to be able to pull out? It's not balanced if played this way.
I think it should be woundable on a 6. I mean it still gets its 4+ ward save. I mean if Crossbow bolts can potentially bring a necrosphinx then why not this beasty.
That said, Wood elves can deal with it with Magic can’t they?
Careful character placing doesn’t matter to a individual model that has a base movement of 9 inches. A hero/lord on foot in a unit of infantry, cleverly placed or not, is not going to fight the kdaii, if the Kdaii doesn’t want him to.
And losing 2 wounds on average during a six turn game due to the toughness test isn’t exactly a dealbreaker. The thing has a boatload of wounds, is immune to S4 and below, and a 4+ ward save for anything that does get through. It’s going to survive a game unless something truly catastrophic happens - something I’d prefer to not have to rely on, if I were playing against it.
I guess it’s supposed to represent the lesser attacks either getting burnt up when nearing or the searing heat stopping the connection from happening as they’re not quick enough.
I dunno, lol. It should be able to be wounded on a 6. If need be, a 6, followed by a 4+ or something. There are ways to counter it and most armies will have them, but it’s been considered overpowered without the unwoundable nature of it anyway.
Since it’s their rule, which happens to copy the SoM one, that’s how it is applied for their models. That being said, it’s not an official FAQ or anything. I think play is as 6s to wound, regardless of rules as written and that response. Otherwise, you won;t have any more opponents to play.
That said, Wood elves can deal with it with Magic can't they?
ChungEssence
Yeah, but they're not exactly a magic powerhouse army. Their spells are also mainly defensive and buffs - I think most Wood Elf players use the Lore of Life now anyway, but the same applies. You're not going to zap a Destroy with Regrowth, are you? There are magic arrows and stuff but...yeah...it still comes down to list tailoring. Who's going to expect an opponent to show up with something that your basic troops can't even hurt? I mean, the thing is literally Immune to Glade Guard. They hit at Strength 3 no matter what.
I’ll simply allow my opponents to wound it on 6s. I know how disheartening can be facing “power players”, and I want my opponents to have fun. The more I read about the LoA the more I think they kind of skipped the playtesting phase.
This said, as LoA isn’t allowed in tourneys why can’t we simply use another (funnier!) list? There’s plenty of fan-made armybooks in this forum, which, IMO, are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than the LoA list (is the emphasis on “way” strong enough:)).
I'll simply allow my opponents to wound it on 6s. I know how disheartening can be facing "power players", and I want my opponents to have fun.
Skink
A powerful model and a "power player" are two different things. When dark elf hydras hit the gaming table back then everybody moand about the "overpowered" model - and look now: hydras barely get an eye bat. You expect them in every dark elf army, and you deal with them in every dark elf army. The cauldron or shadow magic give me a lot more headaches than the hydra.
Some armies are ill-equipped to deal with certain models - if you know beforehand that you'll be playing one of your friends with such a handicap - just leave the destroyer at home. Same as steam tanks, multiple etheral units, 3+ ward save chosen stars, etc.
The more I read about the LoA the more I think they kind of skipped the playtesting phase.
Skink
I agree. :hat off
This said, as LoA isn't allowed in tourneys why can't we simply use another (funnier!) list? There's plenty of fan-made armybooks in this forum, which, IMO, are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than the LoA list (is the emphasis on "way" strong enough:)).
Skink
That's up to the individual tournament organizer. Given some time, i'm pretty sure more and more tournaments will allow the LoA list - the models are gorgeous, the army isn't overly hard.
As for friendly games?
Who cares about power level. It is all about the beautiful models and the fun of rolling bucketloads of dice (plus, the very good reason to have some hours of carefree fun and a beer or two ;) ).
I understand the being immune to lower strength attacks-thing but really, we did just finish an entire version of Warhammer where all high-toughness models had that ability. It didn’t break the game then and it doesn’t now. Being immune to low-strength attacks went from being common to now only a few models have it. Sure it’s a great ability and a darn tough monster but it can be dealt with. I destroyed the first one I faced the way I get rid of all my enemy’s monsters - the Lore of Death. The next game I saw someone else kill it with a Dwarven cannon on turn 1. Both times it was dead before it even saw combat. It’s far from unstoppable.
I agree it’s far from unstoppable. I killed it with my lord and his hammerers (hammerer’s aren’t used to only wounding on 5+). The fact that my lord had a magic item was the difference breaker. Killed the thing in one round although I was lucky the Destroyer only got 1 thunderstomp.
It’s big weakness(potentially) besides the toughness test is the fact that all it’s attacks are flaming. Regarding tomb kings, they have a few options of dealing with it. Giant/Ushabti with bows. Unlikely, but the stalkers gaze or Necrosphinx HKB. Casket of Light is potentially devastating against it. Imo the best way to deal with it is simply a tomb king that’s immune to flame with a magic weapon. He will wound it with a great weapon on a 4+. In fact I think a Tomb King with the flaming ward save and a great weapon has a decent chance to solo the beasty.
It’s very powerful but can be dealth with. Excluding spells, i’m curious as to the options the different armies have. I’m very unfamiliar with woodelves (lord with magic bow?) . If it didn’t have the toughness test i’d
Some things just require some list tailoring to be dealt with. Whether they belong in the game is debatable (as per Thommy). The Hydra, Pendant Stubborn lord, Hellpit Abomination, Ethereals come to mind. It’s due to Hydra/HPA that so many armies bring some sort of flaming.
Regarding Poison attacks… this give St 3 troops the chance to hurt it correct? I mean Ghouls have poison attacks but are still St 3. Does this mean they can’t hurt it as they are too weak?
Anyone with an access to a cannon/stone thrower has the potential to wound it… if they have two odds are it’s dead before it reaches combat. I’ve had it suffer 3 wounds from 2 cannon shots, only for it to fail the Toughness test & roll a D3… on Turn 2 before I could charge. Hardly unkillable…
Anyone with Shadow/Death or Skaven can lower its Toughness … enjoy the Toughness test on a 4/5+
It can still be hit with Dwellers, Pit, Final Transmutation, Purple Sun. Yes its a 17% chance (Pit & Purple Sun might be higher due to Miasma)
Dark Elf on Pegasus with Pendant/Crown & Dragonhelm will be hold in place
