[Archive] Chalice og Blood and Darkness

Bloodbeard:

I’ve seen multible threads where the Chalice is mentioned. Often as a cheating item, banned from tournaments and such.

It’s easy to see why people bitch about the K’daii Destroyer ad perhaps even the magma cannon. But why the Chalice?

I’ve played a couple of games and I’ve been really unlucky with my magic. It really hasn’t done much for me - and my opponents agree it’s due to bad luck.

I’m not sure I get the rules correctly. Is it really so powerfull? Search the forum for answers, didn’t help much.

Why is the Chalice so hated and overpowered?

m0rg0th:

Yes it is.

One way to use it would be something like this:

You have 4 power dice left and your opponent has let’s say 4 dispel dice left.

You cast the Purple Sun (for example, or another gamebreaking spell).

AFTER you throw the 4 dice you can use the chalice, taking d3 (let’s say 2) dice out of the pools.

You yourself don’t have any left and the opponent can dispel the spell with 2 dice…

And yes, that’s as bad as it gets…

Dînadan:

Can it be used like that? I know the FAQ says ‘any point in the magic phase’ but it would never have occurred to me to use it like that :S

m0rg0th:

Sadly it can.

This message was automatically appended because it was too short.

Bloodbeard:

That’s absolutly insane!

Didn’t know about the FAQ. Seems really really nasty.

Will try it out in a friendly game and tell my opponent about it. Just to see it in action.

Nasty.

m0rg0th:

You can also use it defensively…

Just use all your dispel dice on one spell and when the opponent wants to cast a big spell take d3 power dice away. you don’t have any dispel dice left anyways, so basically it ruins his magic phase.

but the offensive use is way nastier.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

Just because you CAN do something does not mean you SHOULD do something. I have no shortage of players in my area so if someone wanted to try and pull a move like that, I’d have no issues shaking their hand, congratulating them on their win, and not playing them again. I’m a Chaos Dwarf player and I don’t need to win that badly. And I don’t want to play against anyone who needs to win that badly either.

The Chalice of Blood and Darkness - some players think it’s an excuse to put the ‘FU’ in ‘fun’.

m0rg0th:

And that is exactly why it is banned almost all the time.

tjub:

Oh, I had no idea… Guess Ill have myself to blame here, the few times I tired it I used it at the start of the magic phase. IMO between spells would be OK, but to use it when the spell is cast and before your opponents dispel is just stupid. We only play friendly fluff games, but Ive always considered the magic to be simultanious. Cast and dispel to be a battle of magic force where the stronger pushes thru…

Bloodbeard:

I’m a casual gamer. My friends and I play for the great stories, epic battles and often change rules and scenarios during games - because it might be good for the game.

So I’m not skilled at reading the rules very tactical.

But thanks for the answers. It’s a very nasty item and it seems rather broken.

cornixt:

I’d only use it before casting or after dispelling. Using it in the in-between time is just rules-lawyery.

Far2Casual:

Debate is still raging by us to see if that is even RAW, as the rules don’t seem to allow anything to happen between the power dice throw and the dispell attempt. In any case, if you get an agreement to prevent anyone using it as m0rgr0th suggested, the item is fine.

If your opponent is smart, he will not let you getting the most of it even defensively, as m0rgr0th again suggested (dispelling a big spell with all your dices and then use it). He will just use some dices for the small spells at the beginning, keeping 5/6 for the nasty one for which you will try everything you can to keep dices to dispell it. So in practice, if the opponent knows what he’s doing, you will only use it in very specific conditions.

m0rg0th:

Debate is still raging by us to see if that is even RAW, as the rules don't seem to allow anything to happen between the power dice throw and the dispell attempt.

Far2Casual
If only...
But sadly the rules team answered that question like this:

CLICK ME

Reminds me of the screwup with the Ogre-Slaughtermaster who can take magical armour.
"Hey guys, we screwed up... here we have a chance to fix the problem!"
"Naaa... Just leave it like this..."

Yodrin:

The Chalice is brutal when used to the maximum, its cheese and beyond, and its not a item thats a favorite of mine.

But haven’t almost every army something really broken?

Bloodbeard:

The Chalice is brutal when used to the maximum, its cheese and beyond, and its not a item thats a favorite of mine.

Yodrin
How would you use it to the maximum? Can it be used better or more brutal than Morgorth said in respons 1?

Dînadan:

The Chalice is brutal when used to the maximum, its cheese and beyond, and its not a item thats a favorite of mine.

Yodrin
How would you use it to the maximum? Can it be used better or more brutal than Morgorth said in respons 1?


Bloodbeard
I think that's what he meant by maximum - 'regular' use would be how the rest of us thought it worked, in which case it's not too nasty.

m0rg0th:

It’s still quite nasty if you use it defensively.

Taking D3 power dice away in any magic phase completely destroys the enemies magic.

And all that for 50 points.

Bloodbeard:

Potentially only taking away 1 PD and stealing 3 of your own DD - leaving your army defenceless.

Dînadan:

Potentially only taking away 1 PD and stealing 3 of your own DD - leaving your army defenceless.

Bloodbeard
I was going to reply with something along this line when I saw m0rg0th's reply earlier, but then I realised that's the wrong way to go about it.

The tactic m0rg0th is thinking of is once you've already used your dispel dice up and you're opponent has power dice left - either you strip away the couple they have remaining, or if they've been hording up to cast a big spell, you cut their pool in half so they don't have enough to be able to cast the big spell unless they get really high rolls. Either way, you use it at a point when you have no dispel dice left so wont be shafted by it.

m0rg0th:

The tactic m0rg0th is thinking of is once you've already used your dispel dice up and you're opponent has power dice left - either you strip away the couple they have remaining, or if they've been hording up to cast a big spell, you cut their pool in half so they don't have enough to be able to cast the big spell unless they get really high rolls.  Either way, you use it at a point when you have no dispel dice left so wont be shafted by it.

Dînadan
Exactly. Key is to use the chalice, once you have no more dice to use. Basically it is just broken either way you are using it.