[Archive] Chaos and Chaos Dwarfs

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
1

Groznit Goregut:

Hello All,

As I continue to mine for CD Lore and strategies from CDO like a whipped slave, I have a number of questions. The latest has to do with Chaos and Chaos Dwarfs. I know that there is a disturbing lack of lore (aka fluff) about Chaos Dwarfs, but maybe someone knows more than myself.

What is up with all the arrows on Chaos Dwarf stuff? I don’t see a full Chaos Star of 8 arrows in different directions, but I see a lot of just arrows in various directions. I’m not a chaos expert, but doesn’t the Chaos Star represent the 8 winds of magic. Aren’t the 8 winds of magic just chaos energy that’s flowing through the world with the chaos gates open? I don’t see any Chaos Stars (maybe I just haven’t seen them), but there are the arrows. Is there anything we can infer from this? Any reasoning about why there are the arrows?

What exactly is Chaos about? Raw chaos in the warp is just another dimension that is really hard for us to understand. Coming through the war gates and into our world, chaos wants to spread out into this world. Turn the regular world into chaos like the chaos wastelands. Spread the influence of chaos. Chaos is evil and demented. That much is known. What else is there to know about chaos? It all seems rather based on the chaos patron. Each of the main Ruinous Powers has an ideology and belief that it wants to push onto others. They are trying to control territory and wax and wane as they make alliances and fight each other.

Where does Hashut fall into all of this? The base chaos trait is that someone is evil and demented. Beyond that, the traits of the chaos god really shape more of what that chaos person is about. What does Hashut believe in? What traits does he push down on Chaos Dwarfs? Does Hashut have his own space in the warp that he’s carved out for his own? Does he have demons as servitors like the other chaos gods?

From what I see, the Chaos Dwarfs hate their old kindred. They want revenge, right? Or the spread of chaos? Or their own power? They aren’t very good at it. All they seem to do is enslave anyone within reach and put them to work in digging up mineral wealth. They don’t work towards building armies to extract revenge on the other dwarfs. They don’t make war on the hobgoblin khans. They don’t try to destroy the ogre kingdoms. Get slaves, mine wealth, rinse, and repeat.

OK…they do make great weapons and armors that they then trade to the agents of the other Ruinous Powers. They also fight them as much as trade with them. They are great craftsman who trade their goods for slaves and unusual items. It sounds more like a bunch of evil guys who have different clans and the overall goal is to become the most powerful clan in the city. That seems rather small minded, though. What does Hashut preach? He will lead the CD forces against the rest of the world to extract revenge? I would think that Hashut, being a chaos god, would want to spread chaos like all the other gods. Why don’t they actually do anything, then? You could say that they were preparing, but how many centuries do they need to prepare? Dwarven engineering mixed with sorcerous powers could overcome many obstacles in whatever plan they came up with. I don’t see much of a plan, though.

What do Chaos Dwarfs stand for besides being “evil”, making artifacts, and capturing slaves to gather the resources?

2

Groznit Goregut:

Oh, I forgot a whole other line of thought. Chaos Mutations! Other chaos powers mutate their followers. Chaos dwarfs were mutated way back when. They got the big nose, fangs, and wider mouth. The best original servants were mutated into bull centaurs. Some were even mutated into Great Taurus or Lammasu. This seems to be a long time ago. Has no one mutated since then? Do good servants now get changed into bull centaurs? Do bull centaurs reproduce? Or are they only worthy dwarfs who are mutated into them?

Is Hashut around? Is he sleeping again? He doesn’t grant spells like a priest, but he does give magic spells. Other chaos powers grant magic, but not priest spells, so I guess that’s in line. Does Hashut try to intervene in the Old World? What are his emissaries? Other powers have demons. Does Hashut? Does he send visions or agents or anything?

Chaos dwarfs are said to be demon smiths. Isn’t that binding demons into items and such? Wouldn’t that suck for the demon? Isn’t that rather a hostile action to take? Are these demons agents of other chaos gods? Willing agents of Hashut? Don’t the other Ruinous Powers create their own demons out of a portion of themselves and create their traits? So, Hashut could create demons that want to be bound in items.

I know that I’m just kind of rambling, but I’m trying to figure it all out.

Thanks for any input! :slight_smile:

3

Thommy H:

Have you read the wiki? It may help you with a lot of your questions.

4

cornixt:

Most of what you ask can only be answered by “No one knows”. There is such little information about Hashut. All we really know is that he likes bulls, fire, volcanoes, and related stuff. What he thinks, is, intends, does or has done, is not mentioned in the fluff.

5

Groznit Goregut:

Thanks guys! I have read the wiki, but can’t really find any answers for my questions. That’s why I posted here.

Well, if there are no official answers, what does everyone speculate?

6

Ancient History:

What is up with all the arrows on Chaos Dwarf stuff?
Good question. Like the lightning bolts and cracked skulls, a part of Chaos Dwarf iconography that isn't really explained.
I don't see a full Chaos Star of 8 arrows in different directions
The eight-arrows-of-Chaos design was borrowed/stolen from Michael Moorcock's fiction - the eight arrows in the cardinal directions represent the limitless possibilities of Chaos, as opposed to the single arrow of Law. The Winds of Magic were grafted on later.
What exactly is Chaos about? Raw chaos in the warp is just another dimension that is really hard for us to understand. Coming through the war gates and into our world, chaos wants to spread out into this world. Turn the regular world into chaos like the chaos wastelands. Spread the influence of chaos. Chaos is evil and demented. That much is known. What else is there to know about chaos? It all seems rather based on the chaos patron. Each of the main Ruinous Powers has an ideology and belief that it wants to push onto others. They are trying to control territory and wax and wane as they make alliances and fight each other.
Not...quite. The generally accepted fiction is that the Ruinous Powers are manifestations of mankind's (and to an extant, other races') emotions in the Realm of Chaos, which is governed by emotions instead of physical laws. So Khorne isn't just a daemon god of combat, he's a manifestation of mankind's violent emotions in all their forms.

Chaos is, literally, infinite possibility. Good, Law and beauty could come from Chaos - it's just the way the bones fall.
Where does Hashut fall into all of this?
Hashut is a minor deity associated with Chaos, and the Chaos Dwarfs in particular. Some non-canon fiction suggests he was once a demon aligned with Khorne.
What does Hashut believe in? What traits does he push down on Chaos Dwarfs?
Domination seems to be key, the slaving aspect of Chaos Dwarfs was highly emphasized.
Does Hashut have his own space in the warp that he's carved out for his own?
Hashut may well have his own realm in the Realms of Chaos, yes. Other gods do.
Does he have demons as servitors like the other chaos gods?
Unknown. The Ruinous Powers are so powerful they can afford many servants - many of which are just fractions of their own might or aspects of their own personalities. Lesser powers, like Hashut and the Horned Rat, are rarely shown to have daemons - but it has been known to happen.
From what I see, the Chaos Dwarfs hate their old kindred. They want revenge, right? Or the spread of chaos? Or their own power? They aren't very good at it. All they seem to do is enslave anyone within reach and put them to work in digging up mineral wealth. They don't work towards building armies to extract revenge on the other dwarfs. They don't make war on the hobgoblin khans. They don't try to destroy the ogre kingdoms. Get slaves, mine wealth, rinse, and repeat.
Chaos Dwarfs are very much like their Dwarf cousins in many respects, but their negative traits - greed, vengeance, not caring about the environment - and added some normally antithetical traits, like slavery and sorcery.

It's not that the Chaos Dwarfs aren't warlike, it's that they're so damn successful that they're happy with their empire and haven't really worked to expand it. This is a stance many Chaos Dwarf players would like to see change.
7

Groznit Goregut:

Thanks for the great reply! The domination idea makes a lot of sense. That would be about gathering slaves and competing with your peers in a way to dominate them. That could make the culture pretty insular.

Chaos is, literally, infinite possibility. Good, Law and beauty could come from Chaos - it’s just the way the bones fall.
OK…so if that is the case, why is it that only negative and evil things come from chaos, then? I can see someone argue that perhaps all the gods came from the void. It might be cannon, for all I know. I can’t see it, though. Why would only the Ruinous Powers hang around the chaos wastes and gain power from warpstone? If Taal and all the others came from the Warp, wouldn’t they also use warpstone for their own ends and warpstone wouldn’t just corrupt in a negative way?
The generally accepted fiction is that the Ruinous Powers are manifestations of mankind’s (and to an extant, other races’) emotions in the Realm of Chaos, which is governed by emotions instead of physical laws. So Khorne isn’t just a daemon god of combat, he’s a manifestation of mankind’s violent emotions in all their forms.
OK…that is easily translated from Khorne and Slaanesh. Tzeetch (sp?) can be said to derive from curiosity and wanting power. What about Nurgle? I could see that it comes from laziness or slothfulness to the extreme, but that doesn’t mesh with the fluff about Nurgle being “Father Nurgle” and creating life (through diseases). That’s the one that I don’t get.

I can see Hashut being about greed, covetousness, ambition, and a desire to dominate.

I still wonder about mutations, or the lack thereof.

8

snowblizz:

OK....that is easily translated from Khorne and Slaanesh.  Tzeetch (sp?) can be said to derive from curiosity and wanting power.  What about Nurgle?  I could see that it comes from laziness or slothfulness to the extreme, but that doesn't mesh with the fluff about Nurgle being "Father Nurgle" and creating life (through diseases).  That's the one that I don't get.  

I can see Hashut being about greed, covetousness, ambition, and a desire to dominate.

I still wonder about mutations, or the lack thereof.

Groznit Goregut
Tzeentch is also about hope. The will to change. Tzeentch means "Lord of the will to change" in the Dark Tongue.

Nurgle is the opposite. Nurgle thrives on despair, strongly associated with disease and decay. It is about giving up the will to change, to give in to the despair of your hopelessness and Father Nurgle will take that away and see to that you don't mind your present condition.

The Gods of Chaos are difficult to describe in short since they are variations and permutations. That's why if you only look on a small part it doesn't always make sense of the whole.
9

wallacer:

OK.....so if that is the case, why is it that only negative and evil things come from chaos, then?  

Groznit Goregut
They don't, it only seems that way in game terms.  Slaanesh cultists, for example, may create beautiful pieces of art, but that has no relevance in the tabletop game, so it only appears that evil things come from Chaos.
I can see someone argue that perhaps all the gods came from the void.  It might be cannon, for all I know.  I can't see it, though.  Why would only the Ruinous Powers hang around the chaos wastes and gain power from warpstone?  If Taal and all the others came from the Warp, wouldn't they also use warpstone for their own ends and warpstone wouldn't just corrupt in a negative way?

Groznit Goregut
There are 8 winds of magic.  In addition there is also Dhar (Dark Magic).  Dhar hangs around like a stagnant pool and over time solidifies into warpstone.  For this reason Warpstone is only of use to Chaos worshippers, Skaven, Dark Elves and other nogoodniks.
Tzeetch (sp?) can be said to derive from curiosity and wanting power.  What about Nurgle?  I could see that it comes from laziness or slothfulness to the extreme, but that doesn't mesh with the fluff about Nurgle being "Father Nurgle" and creating life (through diseases).  That's the one that I don't get.  

Groznit Goregut
Liber Chaotica has a very interesting explanation for this.
Nurgle is the God of apathy, indifference, physical corruption and self loathing.
Disease (Nurgle's most common manifestation) is essentaially seen as a manifestation of these things.  One of the curious side effects of being infected by Nurgle is that the Disease actually has a comforting effect on the inflicted, that they feel that in a very real sense Nurgle is within them and that they are therefore special, cared for and watched over.  In this way, Nurgle's worshippers have an affection for Nurgle that most other Chaos Worshippers do not have for their Gods, hence the affectionate nickname "Father Nurgle".  
The diseases they are inflicted with do not seem unpleasant or painful, rather they are comforting and are displayed with pride.  Some of the diseases result in Nurglings, plaguebearers or simple bacteria issuing forth, hence Nurgle is seen as creating life, not just ending it.
Liber Chaotica explains this a lot better than I have, if you want to know more (I thought Liber Chaotica: Nurgle was actually the best of the 4 books).
I still wonder about mutations, or the lack thereof.

Groznit Goregut
Dwarfs (including CD) have a strong racial resistance to mutation, much like halflings and Ogres.  Some of the old 3rd ed. CD figures did have mutations, however.
10

Kera foehunter:

tall hat cd ,the arrow is to tell them the hat faces up when they where it

11

Groznit Goregut:

Thanks for the replies! Keep 'em coming!

Dwarfs (including CD) have a strong racial resistance to mutation, much like halflings and Ogres.  Some of the old 3rd ed. CD figures did have mutations, however.

wallacer
OK…but dwarfs did mutate. Standard CD’s got tusks. A select few turned into bull centaurs, great tauruses, and lammasi. OK…when did all that happen? Why doesn’t it happen now? I don’t understand what happened in the past that doesn’t keep happening to the CD.

12

cornixt:

It’s not clear if the tusks appear during their life, or if they are born with them. I’ve always read it that they are born that way (along with BCs) and that they began during the big wave of Chaos that covered the dark lands for many years. They aren’t any new ones because they are no longer surrounded by Chaos.

13

two_heads_talking:

I think, If my mind serves me correctly, the dwarfs were resistant due to distance from the chaos wastes, depth in the earth and their natural resistances to magic.

When the CD’s left all 3 of these ceased to be the case. They were closer to the source of corruption, they didn’t go as deep in the earth, rather they’d enslave others to do it for them and as they used magic, their own reisistances to it stopped. And we all know that no matter how resiliant a species that the power of chaos will corrupt the uncorruptable and will mutate the unmutable. No matter what it is… or was…

When did it happen? I’d say it was during the time of denial, the time that dwarfs claim never happened and the thing they claim never happened either. According to the dwarfs, the chaos dwarfs are not kin. According to the Chaos dwarfs, the dwarfs are just too stubborn to accept their rightful position as servants to hashut.

14

Thommy H:

It was just exposure that caused the mutations: the normal Dwarfs hid under the mountains, but the (future) Chaos Dwarfs were out on the plateau of Zorn Uzkul. The natural Dwarf resistance to magic and mutation is what caused them to change as little as they did: they have minor, true-breeding deformities like tusks rather than the crazy tentacles and extra heads that afflict humans exposed to the raw stuff of Chaos. They don’t mutate now because they aren’t exposed to Chaos on a regular basis.

15

Tarrakk Blackhand:

I thought the Great Taurus and Lammasu’s were seporate creatures, NOT mutated from CD’s.

16

Ancient History:

According to the old fluff, Chaos Dwarfs believe that the Great Tauruses were once Chaos Dwarfs, and that the Lammasu is a rare mutation of the Great Taurus.

17

cornixt:

The original tauruses were mutations, then they bred…

18

Tarrakk Blackhand:

But isn’t the Taurus just a large bull with wings? I don’t see how the Cd’s could think that they started out as CD’s.

19

Baggronor:

But isn't the Taurus just a large bull with wings?
I will never be able to use my Taurus again after one guy said, "omg a flying cow?!" :) Personally I always thought it should have been Daemonic.
It's not that the Chaos Dwarfs aren't warlike, it's that they're so damn successful that they're happy with their empire and haven't really worked to expand it. This is a stance many Chaos Dwarf players would like to see change.
Its the old Dwarf quality of being content to mine and build and hoard if you ask me :) only CDs do it in a really twisted way, with slaves and an emphasis on dominating others. They also don't have any real threats near to their domain, their powerful neighbours value trade with them too much to annoy them, and the not so powerful neighbours get to be slaves.
20

Tarrakk Blackhand:

I figure the Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs are like USA and Russia. Both are primarily Caucasion and both have large armies. However, each have their own unique histories, weapons, allies and politics.

Simular, yet radically different.