Awbbie:
Hi I was reading through the little rule book I got from Skull pass and I saw that Dwarfs got 2 extra dispel dice. Does that include Chaos Dwarfs or are they exempt because they embraced magic. I can’t find any thing to say either.
Ubertechie:
Chaos Dwarfs use magic and therefore are not as resistant as their non-chaotic cousins so they do not get the extra dispel dice.
They generate 2 dispel and 2 poer dice just like any other normal army
Thommy H:
This was discussed in a recent thread that quickly got…nasty.
The consensus is that Chaos Dwarfs don’t get the bonus dispel dice. I could go into the reasons why if you really want me to, but it may not be that wise.
Awbbie:
Okay just wanted to check. thanks.
CheTralfara:
I don’t think a consensus was reached. In fact if anything, if you were to combine the ideas of everything that was in that post into one consensus, it would be that we have no idea if Chaos Dwarfs get the + 2 DD because there is evidence that they should and shouldn’t get the dice (evidence on both sides).
With rules as written, it says “with an army of Dwarfs”. The capitalization of the word dwarfs doesn’t mean they are referring to the Dwarfs army because the rulebook capilizes everything from the word “Undead” to “Elves” to “Bows”… probably to emphasize and highlight rules. Since Chaos Dwarfs are an army that is comprised of a TYPE of “Dwarfs”, it is not unreasonable to be asking the question you’re asking…
Basically the truth is that we don’t know what was intended by the new wording of the rule in the 7th edition rulebook. However, there is precedence for race-wide rules to effect several different armies as goblins fear “Elves”… this is interpreted to include Dark Elves, Wood Elves, AND High Elves… Then there are also characters like Ku’gath who hate Dwarfs… which even our wiki seems to believe includes Chaos Dwarfs (in the tactics section). It is also generally assumed that IF (as in hypothetically) the rulebook (rather than a specific armybook) said a rule effects “ogres” that it would also effect Chaos Ogres & DOW Ogres (instead of just the ogres in ogre kingdoms), and if a rule said it effects “armies of Undead”, it would effect BOTH Tomb Kings AND Vampire Counts.
Here’s what it breaks down to…
Arguements AGAINST Chaos Dwarfs getting the +2 DD bonus:
- Chaos Dwarfs didn’t have the dispel dice bonus in previous editions of the rules
- Chaos Dwarfs have wizards therefore must have lost their resistance to magic
- Chaos Dwarfs are not entirely an army of dwarfs as they also have greenskin slaves.
- Chaos Dwarfs didn’t receive the +2 DD at GW grand tournaments, when Chaos Dwarfs were still allowed at GTs.
Arguements FOR Chaos Dwarfs getting the +2 DD bonus:
- previous editions do not set the precedent as the rules change with every edition and update.
- Chaos Dwarfs are implicitly said to have a magic-resistance in their official GW-written fluff as it says…
“Physically, the Chaos Dwarfs resemble other Dwarfs, for Dwarfs themselves are very resistant to the influence of magic. The power of Chaos has warped their appearance only slightly, usually only giving them tusk-like teeth. On rare occasions, some Chaos Dwarfs develop bull-like features…”
- with regards to Chaos Dwarf wizards also having a magic-resistance it is seemingly implied that they turn to stone because of their unnatural use of magic despite their in-born resistance to magic. On the subject, our CD wiki reads…
“Unfortunately, this use of magic slowly returns them to their original form. For Dwarfs are the people of the earth and so as a Sorcerer uses more magic, he gradually turns to stone, from the feet up.”
- Yes, chaos dwarfs have greenskin slaves, but imagine if a rule said encompasses an army of Undead, everyone would automatically know that it includes Vampire Counts, BUT Vampire Counts include living creatures like Bats and Ghouls. Also, Chaos Dwarfs are still an army of (as in with or mostly comprised of…) Dwarfs, even with their greenskin slaves.
- Grand Tournaments are not actually hosted by the GW rules team and GTs are outsourced to a separate group of coordinators who host these events. There ruling on the ‘dispel dice bonus’ is as good as your own personal interpretation, and was likely made as to not upset anyone who feels that it is too unclear to decide.
CONCLUSION:
- It isn’t exactly perfectly clear, and can be interpreted both ways…
- We have no FAQ or Errata that mentions or covers this questions, nor has GW ever mention it or referred to it…
- It is entirely up to you and your opponent to decide whether or not your Chaos Dwarf army will have the bonus dice.
So please don’t let people tell you their opinion on the subject as if it were an official consensus or decision on behalf of this forum… In the aforementioned ‘post gone nasty’ there were people on both sides of the issue, and always will be until GW clears it up specifically.
.nick
Swissdictator:
Che: With respect, I think the majority… if not the overwhelming majority was in favor of NOT getting the extra dispel dice. Quite honestly, if we as Chaos Dwarf players reject a possible significant bonus (and a big one with all the magic these days)… as we’d probably be the most biased in benefiting our army… I think it’s safe to say the general view of the community is that they don’t.
Just because some people disagree does not mandate debate nor does it mean that there is a real conflict.
Ubertechie:
I dont want to start a flame war here but this logic is flawed
said a rule effects “ogres” that it would also effect Chaos Ogres & DOW Ogres (instead of just the ogres in ogre kingdoms),Bull-Charge - only affects ogre kingdoms units yet the book only references ogres - it has been asked and FAQ’d if this affects Chaos Ogres and it does not.
Using this same premise rules out the +2 DD arguement fairly conclusivley in my opinion
WoodenPickles:
wait, where in the BIG red book does it say dwarves get two extra dispell dice.
Servius:
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Tarrakk Blackhand:
Oh wow! I didn’t know this was a heated debate! I must have missed that day that this was posted.
Actually, I would have never even thought about using that rule for CD’s.
Ancient History:
ven our wiki seems to believe includes Chaos Dwarfs (in the tactics section).Okay, this one is on me. My interpretation - and this is all me - is that for the purposes of Psychology, Chaos Dwarfs are treated as a variety of Dwarfs. My general basis for this were two rules and one ruling:
CheTralfara
- Goblins Fear Elves is accepted as applying equally to High Elves, Dark Elves, and Wood Elves. (p.22, O&G)
- Orcs, Goblins, Gnoblars, Hobgoblins, etc. are all Greenskins and can be treated as a group, as shown by the Dwarf army's Ancestral Grudge (p.28, Dwfs)
- In the O&G FAQ it is stated that "when counting Orcs, count Orcs of any type. The same is true for Goblins."
The latter in particular grants that Black Orcs are also Orcs, and Night Goblins are also Goblins, etc.
Based on these three precedents, I feel confident - and that it is the generally accepted belief of the community at large - that the effects of Hate Dwarfs apply equally to Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs, because they are of the same, or at least very similar, races.
That Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs do not share the same army rules is not proof or precedent one way or the other; the three Elf army books all use different rules, Chaos Ogres in Warriors of Chaos armies and Ogre Kingdoms armies use different rules, Greenskins not in the Orcs & Goblins army book use different (albeit similar) rules. Clearly, army rules are not solely racial rules.
Which brings us to the Dwarf Dispel Dice question (p.106, Warhammer, 7th Edition), which at this point I think should earn a wiki page to itself.
Personally, I do not subscribe to the idea that Chaos Dwarfs should get the bonus Dispel Dice, but I can see how you can argue that it would apply using the same rule precedents I've given above for why Psychology should apply. Until a definitive ruling has been made one way or the other by Games Workshop, I would suggest discussing it with your opponent before the game and arriving at an understanding - dice off for it if you have to.
[/edit]
Explaining the arguments and counterarguments for clarity:
The Goblins' Fear Elves is an effective argument because it affects every unit in three separate army books, based solely on their race - to the Goblins, it doesn't matter if it is a Dark Elf, High Elf, or Wood Elf as long as it is an elf.
The counterargument is that Fear Elves is a specific, special rule that required explanation as to its full scope, whereas [/i] did not; it can honestly be argued that this is a special and specific rule that only applies to Goblins and is an exception to the normal rules, and should not be a proper precedent for [/i].
As support to the latter ruling, no identical rule is found in any other army book...except the Dwarfs' very similar [/i][/b] rule, which can be used to refute the [/i][/b] counterargument. Of course, the same argument applied to [/i][/b] (i.e. it is an army-specific special rule and not a general rule for all armies) can also be applied to [/i][/b].
[/i][/b] has the general advantage that it applies to multiple "races," and not just those with "Elf" in their names. Greenskin has always been a kind of overgroup. In fact, in [/i] it is specifically mentioned that "Gnoblars are counted as Greenskins in all respects." (p.42, [/i]) Of course, no such specific rule or mention exists for Chaos Dwarfs.
The [/i] ruling is very interesting in that it would seem to be directly relevant to the problem at hand - many [/i] magic items (and magic in general) differentiate between Goblins and Orcs, and in some cases Night Goblins and Black Orcs. The FAQ ruling says that the latter two, despite having different names, are "counted as" Goblins and Orcs respectively. Obviously, this situation directly parallels Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs - but again, as counterargument, no direct ruling states this relationship for Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs, and name alone may not be sufficient for these rule-judgments.
Compare, for example, that you have Rat-Ogres and Dragon-Ogres, neither of which are obviously Ogres - but which using the same argument as the
Tarrakk Blackhand:
Do the Ravening Hordes list or any of it’s official erratta lists say that they can get the Dispell Dice?
If not, then it seems logical that the CD’s would NOT have the extra dice.
Baggronor:
This has been raised before, there is nothing to suggest that Chaos Dwarfs get the extra dispel dice beyond wishful thinking.
It also specifically states in the Dwarfs’ Ravening Hordes list that they receive the bonus dispel dice, while it says nothing of the sort in the Chaos Dwarfs’ list entry.
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Most of all, why would they get the bonus dispel dice if they have access to wizards? It makes little sense in terms of game mechanics.
Fluff says many things, none of which do or should have a direct impact on the game, only the written rules.
goblins fear “Elves”… this is interpreted to include Dark Elves, Wood Elves, AND High ElvesThis rule is for the Goblins, not the Elves. The Elves themselves do not share any of their racial rules.
Do Hobgoblins fear Elves? No. They still have the word ‘goblin’ in their name though. This is similar to the argument that Chaos Dwarfs should get the bonus dispel dice.
if a rule said it effects “armies of Undead”, it would effect BOTH Tomb Kings AND Vampire Counts.The ‘Undead’ rule itself differs for these two armies. Vampire Counts are able to use Regeneration and Ward saves against crumbling, Tomb Kings are not, a clear example of everything being written on an army by army basis. Another example would be the differences between Daemonic Mounts such as Juggernauts in the DoC and WoC books. They have Magic attacks in one book and not the other; fluff-wise they are identical. All that counts for rules is what is on the specific rules page. It can be extremely annoying (my WoC Daemon Prince has mundane attacks!!?
) but thems the rules.
BilboBaggins:
I get asked about the dispel dice about half the time I play the army against someone new. I play it that they DO NOT get the extra dispel dice. The explanation I give is that even though they are “DWARFS” they have been mutated by Chaos and worship a different God than the Dwarfs so they get to use magic and not get the extra dispel dice.
I would love to get the extra two dispel dice against some magic heavy armies.
CheTralfara:
I wish people would stop trying to say that i am equating a rule that covers a unit type in their army book (or even an ‘army rule’ from their army book) with a race-wide rule in the official rule book. They are 2 totally different things that are not examples of each other.
I also would love it if we could get past this completely goofy idea that chaos dwarfs are not dwarfs nor descendants of dwarfs. There do not need to be rules to state that. The fluff is there for a reason, the rules represent the fluff to the best they can. That’s what makes the game fun and full of fantasy. If orcs didn’t have rules that represent the fluff of orcs, who the hell would want to play them? Chaos Dwarfs are supposed to have rules that represent their fluff. The rulebook seems to imply a change that all armies comprised of any types of Dwarfs are to have extra dispel dice to represent the magic resistance stated in their fluff. Whether they remembered that Chaos Dwarfs were an army of Dwarfs is not certain… It most certainly seems to be implied, but I do agree that there is reason to wonder if they remembered CDs or not.
Also, a majority is not an official ruling… Firstly you probably had alot of members who thought it best not to get involved because we had admins and mods making what could be taken as a threat. Secondly, not even like 5% of the active members of this forum stated where they stand on this, and alot of them even expressed that they simply don’t know/aren’t sure. Thirdly, the majority of opinions on this forum agreeing on a single ruling, doesn’t make that ruling any more significant or official. It simply works as a mere suggestion of how you might wanna use the rule, or how those people would use the rule.
And I’m sorry but if people are uncertain about a rule, it definitely does warrant a debate. What do you think warrants debates if not uncertainty/opposing viewpoints?
.nick
p.s. like I said, I was never referring to the undead rule in the army books, nor the ogre rules in their army book. I was saying that if the BATTLE RULE BOOK said that units of a certain race or type are effected by such-and-such rule, then it would apply to all kinds.
Ancient History:
Also, a majority is not an official ruling... Firstly you probably had alot of members who thought it best not to get involved because we had admins and mods making what could be taken as a threat. Secondly, not even like 5% of the active members of this forum stated where they stand on this, and alot of them even expressed that they simply don't know/aren't sure. Thirdly, the majority of opinions on this forum agreeing on a single ruling, doesn't make that ruling any more significant or official. It simply works as a mere suggestion of how you might wanna use the rule, or how those people would use the rule.Mate, I'm not even sure who you're arguing against here.
CheTralfara
Swissdictator:
I’ve stated my thoughts. I’m stepping out of this one as I don’t want a repeat of the old thread.
CheTralfara:
I’m not arguing with you Ancient History, i agree with your post. I was responding to this quote…
I think the majority… if not the overwhelming majority was in favor of NOT getting the extra dispel dice. Quite honestly, if we as Chaos Dwarf players reject a possible significant bonus (and a big one with all the magic these days)… as we’d probably be the most biased in benefiting our army… I think it’s safe to say the general view of the community is that they don’t.I should also mention another argument against CDs getting the bonus double D’s is that since they have magic users, it would be unbalanced and unfair for them to have the bonus DD’s…
However, the rebuttal to that claim is that Dwarfs don’t have any kind of shortage of DD’s, because you’d be forgetting that they get dispel dice for their runelords and runesmiths just like you would get for wizards, but no one says Dwarfs have an unfair advantage despite having a massive pile of DD’s.
Remember, this time around I’m not arguing for any side, merely that the choice is up to you and it can go either way, since there is no way of knowing.
I will however argue against any claims that you know for a fact that they do or don’t receive this bonus, cuz you definitely don’t know, none of us do, and there is no one you can know. People can cite precedence and past rulings all they want, but the rules change with every update and every edition. The 7th edition seemingly states that armies comprised of any type of Dwarfs are to receive the bonus. If you play strictly rules-as-written then they would get the bonus… the only way around that would be to claim that Chaos Dwarfs are not Dwarfs… which is no more valid than claiming Dark Elves are not a type of Elves, and Chaos Ogres/Trolls are not a type of Ogres/Trolls…
Now hypothetically (playing strictly rules-as-written) if the Battle Rule Book said an “army with Trolls receive plus 2 dispel dice because they are innately magic resistant race”, for the rule to not apply to armies with Chaos Trolls, you’d have to argue that the rules only apply to the specific unit type that is listed as JUST “trolls”, and is not a race wide rule… BUT the creators of warhammer were very specific to justify the rules by saying “an innately magic-resistant race”, that pretty much couldn’t be clearer that it is a race-wide rule.
If you play 100% rules-as-written, and never deter from that position, then you would have to apply the bonus to dwarfs, as the rules specifically says “with an army of Dwarfs” which means an army comprised of the dwarf race, because it then specifically says “an innately magic resitant race”. Please do not say now that I’m arguing for this side… No, I am only stating what the rules say as they are written.
In other words, the rules in the rulebook are clear, that armies of the Dwarf race receive a bonus 2 DD. However, the Chaos Dwarf army IS corrupted, IS part greenskins, and IS a fringe army that is rarely covered by the rules… Therefore it is perfectly legitimate to assume the people who wrote this rule, made a mistake by forgetting that the rule-as-written (RAW) includes armies of Chaos Dwarfs (remember you can always make your army 100% CDs, with no greenies…). If you assume that is the case, and you play that way then you are playing under the assumption of “Rules-As-Intended” (RAI). Rules-As-Intended is kind of a misleading term because there is no real way for any of us to know with absolute certainty what the game makers intended, therefore we are left to interpret and assume the most logical explanation for a faulty or confusing rule. Some people also say that RAI means “Rules-As-Interpreted” which is a much more accurate term. What it breaks down to is…
RAW = Chaos Dwarf armies get the bonus DDs
RAI = There is reason to believe Chaos Dwarfs armies might not get the bonus, so to be safe, let’s just assume they don’t.
So play the way you wanna play. Pick which option you prefer until this subject gets an Errata (cuz remember FAQs are only a house rule interpretation… the official site says they are completely optional and not written by the people who made the book… they are pretty much there for tournaments to run smoothly without conflicting interpretations.)
I don’t see any reason to argue this any further, I think we’ve pretty much covered every single arguement for and against the bonus… Let’s just call it quits while everything is peaceful so we don’t have another topic closed out of desperation to keep the peace…
Swissdictator:
I don't see any reason to argue this any further, I think we've pretty much covered every single arguement for and against the bonus... Let's just call it quits while everything is peacefulAgreed. *tips hat to Che* At least we're both being civil...
CheTralfara