Haven’t used either of them, wondering what people think.
Fireborn have strong ward saves, flaming attacks coming out of their ears (auto-hits, regular attacks, stomp), still pretty speedy compared to the slowpoke Infernals, and they are faster in combat.
Centaurs have armour and weapon options, and against conventional attacks up to S6 they are at least as tough, whilst having better actual Toughness and more wounds to soak damage. They’re also slightly faster, and cheaper-same price depending on upgrades.
Sorta hard to decide really. What are people’s thoughts/experiences with them?
Fireborn are great vs T3 enemies, where the automatic hits from Blazing Body make them seriously killy. They murder elves. Less good against enemies with high T or multiple high Strength attacks. Unbreakable is nice but unstable meanms they need to be used carefully and should only fight what they are good at killing (well, obviously :P). The T tests are a pain, but fluffy - take them in large units (6+) to avoid losing too many. A horde of Fireborn is some scary sh*t.
BCs are a mobile road block and can also hit hard if used in a big unit. They are not unbreakable or immune to psych, so a Taur’uk is very helpful if you’re going for a big unit. With T5 and a 3+ save, they can afford to swing great weapons (and will likely need to in order to overcome their low number of Attacks). Best used against infantry (for stomp) or enemy monsters as they can’t themselves be stomped (flaming banner is nice here, for Aboms, etc). Small units (3) can be handy to hunt war machines, as they are still fairly cheap.
I too have pondered this question and having a difficult times deciding. What helps me in time like this is specificity.
Let�?Ts just say you are creating an all-comers list and you have enough points for 2 fast moving support units, both of which will have a model count of 4 per unit.
Would you rather have�?�.
1. 2 units of 4 Bull Centaurs kitted out however you�?Td like
2. 2 units of 4 Fireborn
3. Or a unit of both
4. Neither, more big guns and footsloggers!
If someone would like to turn this into a poll for me, i would be estatic! As i can’t figure it out…
Against anything with Flaming Attacks, Kdaii are insanely good.
Having only 2W and only 2A really sets them apart from any other Monstrous Infantry in the game. With their 4++ Ward save, they can be incredibly resilient one turn, and crumble like tissue the next. With only 2 attacks they can dish out incredible damage one turn, and miss completely the next.
On top of that, they burn themselves up over the course of the game.
They are probably the least reliable unit in the Chaos Dwarf list.
I haven’t used Fireborns yet, but I have run the Centaurs. 3 with GW are great at munching through chaff of all kinds, plus WM hunting where appropriate and tipping the balance in a closely fought combat. T5 and a 3+ save means they don’t give up wounds easily when flanking and even though they won’t disrupt, they still add valuble combat res.
6 Centaurs with shields are very resilient. I am toying with the idea of adding a Taur’uk with the Crown of Command. to make them stubborn. The only problem with that is it eats up the hero allocation that the BSB and Daemonsmiths come from…
I’ve run 3 games so far with the fireborn. Very cool unit that gives your opponent nightmares early (usually run a block of 6, 3x3). As said are brutal to T3 armies.
But… I usually roll very badly when it comes to T, Ld tests. In only 1 game the unit survived a full game. In 2 games I caused at least 8 wounds to the unit due to it’s T test.
im running 6 bc with additional hand weapons there working well. the burning up of the kadi makes me not want to invest in them i dont really think they will keep there points
Centaurs for president(s)! (or king(s) if you’re more into that kind of thing)
The kdaachi are not worth it in my opinnion. They can grind through t3 opponents but so can the rest of our army. I like the centaurs because they can grind through all opponents which come their way. If I want to take on high I targets I give them great weapons, lots of t3 ‘swarms’ give them aditional hand weapons, lots of shooting give them shields.
I’m not even taking into acount the fact that those kdaachi self destruct.
Would you rather have�?�.
1. 2 units of 4 Bull Centaurs kitted out however you�?Td like
2. 2 units of 4 Fireborn
3. Or a unit of both
4. Neither, more big guns and footsloggers!
I wouldn't run Fireborn in units of less than 6, as already mentioned. I would run BCs in 3s or 6-8 with a Taur'uk.
The kdaachi are not worth it in my opinnion. They can grind through t3 opponents but so can the rest of our army.
Not nearly as quickly though. They can also take on enemy monsters far better than our regular infantry, as they can't be thunderstomped and are very tough to wound, and also the flaming attacks screw over Aboms and Hydras. Nice against the new VCs too ;)
Played my first game with Chaos dwarves last night and used 4 bull centaurs with Banner/musician and banner of swiftness. Great weapons and shields.
I found:
1: They can take a kick’in
2: They can’t hit for toffee on occasion
3: They can take a kick’in
To be honest I liked them. I think I will drop the shields though as T5 and a 3+ is good still. Also gives them more of a chance VS searing doom (should you face it)
I found them very useful in saving my K’Daai…who got tarpitted by a unit of Dragon princes. Mini K’daai would suck at supporting vs flaiming defense.
I think, we have to look from a wide perspective to answer this question. Below, I’ll try to note down some points that I found useful when I decide between them.
Cost:
This is a no brainer. A k’daai is 5-10pts more expensive than BCs, depending on how you equip the BCs. Win for the BCs.
Profiles:
Let’s see… BCs are faster, tougher, have better AS and carry more wounds. K’daais on the other hand excel with their -1 to Wo and Ws. They also have high S and I; but I have to give the win to BCs here again, since the things that k’daais excel are neutralized by BCs almost always. -1 to Wo for k’daais are not the best since the BCs are already tougher. Also, the BCs have a decent AS to make up for the lack of Ws. The strength difference can be swinged to the other way by giving GWs to the BCs. The only real stat that the k’daai is good at is the initiative here. So, win for BCs again.
Special Abilities:
Both cause fear and have stomp attacks. Here, BCs excel with their swiftstride ability, as they are expected to catch fleeing troops or prevent them from declaring flee in the first place. Bonuses for the k’daai here are, the autohits to BtB and the unbreakable rule. The unbreakable rule could have really helped here had they not have the unstable rule too. Unstable rule renders them impossible to be used as mobile roadblocks or tarpits unfortunately. On the other hand, they also have the burn out rule, which i fail every now and then.
I think I have to write smt about the flaming attacks of the k’daai too, which can be a blessing and a curse. I will just say that, you can give the flaming banner to BCs’ banner guy to make them the same.
So I think there’s a tie on this one.
Command Troops:
K’daais can only take champ, where BCs can take full command squad. Carrying a banner guy especially helps when you are to play blood and glory scenario. Otherwise, you will have no choice but to field a 300+ pts regiment (assuming you take at least 6 of them) without a banner, which will have a negative effect on your army’s fortitude. Needless to say, you can give a magic banner to BCs for an element of surprise. Not a biggie, but it’s there. Win for the BCs.
Heroes to Join:
BCs can carry a Taur’ruk behind the enemy lines. I know it’s an expensive choice; but the tactical option is still there. BCs ftw(ish).
So, that’s all I can think about them right now. Among these points, I find the BCs excel in almost every one of them. Saying this, I have to say that I almost always field k’daais in my games, they are just too cool to refuse. Also, they have a psychological effect on the enemy, there’s that; but I feel that the k’daais just don’t cut it when you look from a mathhammer perspective.
Not nearly as quickly though. They can also take on enemy monsters far better than our regular infantry, as they can't be thunderstomped and are very tough to wound, and also the flaming attacks screw over Aboms and Hydras. Nice against the new VCs too ;)
Baggronor
Totally quote.
I've played so far four battles with fireborn and I love them.
I run them 3x2, less than 6 is too easy to crumble because of T tests.
I love to throw them as fast as possible against low T enemies or even heavy infantry. Against light stuff they are ok by themselves againt hordes or thughter opponents like Chaos Warriors they need support.
Throw into combat a ranked unit for combat resolution and Kdaiis for the killings and have fun!
Flaming attacks plus stomp plus auto-hits, how could you not love them?
Yes they crumble but... it's part of the fun!
Once upon a time I loved hobgoblins and orcs as our slaves, if they survived the battle, more slaves, if they died.... who cares? :D
It's the same with Kdaiis, why bother about slaves survailability? Greenskins or demons.... they are slaves! :hat off
In my last battle against vampires they got rid of an horde of skellies (supported by 30 dark elves, it was a combo battle), resisted a combo charge by Mortis engine and a full ranked unit of ghouls and they destroyed the Engine without any support!!! The -1 to wound and the 4+ save is great to make them survive a little bit longer :). At the end of battle only two of them remained (3 self inflicted wounds) but were covered with blood and glory!
This is a no brainer. A k'daai is 5-10pts more expensive than BCs, depending on how you equip the BCs. Win for the BCs.
Cost is a reflection of what you're getting though, I don't see how a comparison is relevant; they don't do the same job.
-1 to Wo for k'daais are not the best since the BCs are already tougher.
But BCs are still wounded on a 2 or more by Str 7 or higher. Fireborn are only wounded on a 3+ and have a 4+ ward. They are also immune to Str 2 or less (not that that is huge, but still). T4 with -1 to wound is waaaay better than T5. They also have a Str 5 Stomp which is big.
Fireborn also can't be panicked off the board, while BCs are Ld8 and will often be far from the BSB. This allows Fireborn to operate outside the General's Ld bubble and BSB zone, while I'd be worried about a big unit of BCs straying outside those.
The in-built Flaming Attacks are also a plus for Fireborn, as well as the 2+ ward vs flaming. Sending them after Tzeentch Daemons or Treekin is hilarious :) And I really can't overstate how good the auto Str 4 hits can be.
but I feel that the k'daais just don't cut it when you look from a mathhammer perspective.
The same is true of many things. Mathhammer is a waste of time beyond the simplest of calculations, particularly for a unit that has so many unusual abilities.
Don't get me wrong, I like them both, but I do feel Fireborn are massively underrated. I can understand why too, their profile looks underwhelming until you actually try them.
As a Dark Elf player, I compared Bull Centaurs to Cold One Knights and I was surprised what I found. And I love my Cold One Knights!
I considered a Bull Centaur, which have exactly twice the base size of a standard cavalry model to see how they would compare. Frontage-wise Centaurs are only 2/3rds the cost of a Cold One Knight. Both cause Fear and both have a move of 7. The knights have a slightly better save but at T5 definitely have the advantage there. They both hit at ST6 though Centaurs strike last and the knights usually first. Even though the Centaurs hit with ST6 every round, I give the edge to Cold One Knights on that front. Dark Elves have Hatred but Centaurs get to stomp and have easy access to Hatred themselves so that’s a tie. And while the knights are Immune to Psychology, Centaurs can actually flee a charge so maybe a slight edge to the knights there. In the end, the real difference (to me!) is that knights have 1 extra point of leadership. And that is not worth all those extra points. So I love my centaurs now too!
K’daai Fireborn having a 4+ ward can make them rockstars. With the Lore of Shadow you can make them virtually immune to Swordmasters and Warriors of Chaos - that’s huge! I haven’t tried them yet because of a lack of models but I have a feeling once I field them, these guys (with a Shadow Mage babysitting them) will crush things!
Everybody keeps on mentioning that Fireborns are only good when they get… insert something like minimum numbers, spel xyz, situation abc and all other flavors
Bull centaurs just do their job with or without support.
I hadn’t considered BCs vs. COKs as a comparison. I just looked at “Monstrous Beast, W2, A2” and decided they couldn’t be much good. But actually… looked at in that light, they’re a lot more impressive than I gave them credit for.
K'daai Fireborn having a 4+ ward can make them rockstars. With the Lore of Shadow you can make them virtually immune to Swordmasters and Warriors of Chaos - that's huge! I haven't tried them yet because of a lack of models but I have a feeling once I field them, these guys (with a Shadow Mage babysitting them) will crush things!
Grimbold Blackhammer
Grimbold Blackhammer
Sorry if I am missing something but how does shadow magic help out K'daai fireborn since we do not get access to lore of shadow? Or is that just in the Tamurkhan book? Even then what spells would be good for them?
