[Archive] Fireborn VS Centaurs

Time of Madness:

I’ve spent some time thinking about Fireborn and Centaurs and I’ve had some troubling trying to figure out which unit is the best support unit for the infernal guard. And yes I realize the hellcannon/destroyer are probably the best support units, however I’d like to include a unit of centaurs/fireborn in my army.[/align]

I’ve had a chance to play games with one of the following 2 units on a regular basis. I’ve been running both units 2X2.

4 Fireborn

= 220pts

or

4 Centaurs

- Standard

- Banner of Switness

- Great Weapons

= 225pts

I really like the fireborn over the centaurs on paper. The fireborn have I4 and S5 and generally get the chance to strike first. They however only have 2 wounds, but have T4 and a 4+ ward save. Also worth mentioning the fireborn get a couple of extra blazing body hits/attacks.

The centaurs come in with a 3+ save, T5 and 3 wounds. They have S6, but always strike last. Because of the standard they have M8 compared to the movement 6 of the fireborn.

Both units only have 2 attacks and stomp, however the fireborn get a couple of extra S4 hits at the start of combat.

After some thought I actually think centaurs might be the better choice as they have the extra wound, T5 and don’t have to take the T test each turn.

Opinions?

Time of Madness

the_Forge_Lord:

Des here.

When I first got wind of the book it was one of the things I went to check first.

As soon as I heard that the Fireborn damage output didnt really scale up considering their defence is worse than the BC, my choice was made. Better defensive stats, better movement, the option of the magic banner and the extra CR from the bearer, and importantly STR 6, all make it a better shot in my eyes. All that for the loss of 2 x str4 blazing body hits.

I keep seeing the phrase on various forums that one has to “pay for the stuff that does what others cannot, regardless of cost” and this unit offers something that the rest of the army has a hard time with, decent enough hitting power and speed. The fireborn are like weirdo Ogres to me, a unit of monster infantry that many races get to use. Not everyone gets a T5 fast unit that is hard to remove. STR 5 is accessible elsewhere, at a much lower speed in some cases, but still in a direct unit. The speed of the BC will allow you to have a little more say in howcombats go down, and even though they have ASL, Movement 8 should allow you to push for more favourable flanks to support your line. With less attacks back, and the defensive stats, they will stick around to deliver a bit of pain. The banner options open them up to deal with various different units (at a potential speed loss) - razor standards, burning standards, swiftness, all good.

Also one should no overlook the option to field a BC hero with them, or for them to combine with (one or more) cheapish Wolf-rider khan(s) to put a few more half decent attacks whereever they go. I don’t mean join units of course, just join a combat with the greenskins.

Your little unit of BC is a really nice build, give it a try.

aka_mythos:

I think both have their uses. The fireborn seem to be a very limited use that hinges on if you need a unit that strikes first or not. If you do, you take fireborn, in all other situations kitted units of BC.

Steve D:

I am thinking two units of 3 centaurs to chaff hunt - spears and sheilds for 2+ defence, look at taking out skinks, RXB’s etc etc and protect the warmachines from hunters - something I think we lack overall.

Baggronor:

So Fireborn are 2 Attacks and 2 Wounds? :~ Instead of 3 Attacks 3 Wounds like every other kind of MI (except BCs). These writers are still playing 5th ed.

I’d go with neither BCs nor Fireborn and just spend the points on more Magma Cannons.

Bolg:

So I only have to re Base 4 centaurs. thats good news (:

Galladorn:

I thought they were 2 atacks and 3 wounds.

the_Forge_Lord:

Strange though it seems, they are not :frowning:

Time of Madness:

Fireborn are 2 attacks (they then have blazing body and stomp) and 2 wounds.

Centaurs are 2 attacks (+ stomp) with 3 wounds.

It is also worth noting that both have the ability to take champions at only 10pts. Seems worth it for the extra attack and ability to challange.

Time of Madness

MartyF:

Its Centaurs for me, with only 2 wounds and the ability to wound themselves I just dont see the fireborne as that attractive.

Will hopefully give them both a few more games to see for sure.

Thommy H:

All units in modern Armies books get command for 10 points each. It’s not a special feature. And 2 Wounds, seriously? Why not just make them Ogre-sized? Crazy.

Time of Madness:

All units in modern Armies books get command for 10 points each. It's not a special feature.

Thommy H
Incorrect. Savage Orc and Orc bosses cost 15pts :) But ya I caught your drift, I believe everything else is 10pt for a champ.

Time of Madness

Insidious:

Having no experience with my CD yet, let alone either of these units I was really wondering about which is more efficient. While I am still planning on buying 4 of the Fireborn now that they have an awesome model, I was leaning towards running the Centaurs. Is a 2x2 or 4x1 the best way to go, or is that simply for the size of game you play, would you run large / bigger blocks and what formation would you recommend. Sorry if this seems like a noobie question but that is pretty much exactly what I am when it comes to actually fielding CD’s or playing Fantasy for that matter…

Baggronor:

Having no experience with my CD yet, let alone either of these units I was really wondering about which is more efficient. While I am still planning on buying 4 of the Fireborn now that they have an awesome model, I was leaning towards running the Centaurs. Is a 2x2 or 4x1 the best way to go, or is that simply for the size of game you play, would you run large / bigger blocks and what formation would you recommend. Sorry if this seems like a noobie question but that is pretty much exactly what I am when it comes to actually fielding CD's or playing Fantasy for that matter...
They have different roles so shouldn't be directly comparable really.

Fireborn tear through T3 infantry like nobody's business, but have a low wound count so are comparatively vulnerable to massed str 3 shooting and the like. Their ward and -1 to wound means they are deceptively resilient against high strength attacks (as long as they are in low volume, which they usually are) like monsters, war machines, great weapon elites. The T test can be a bummer, so never take less than 6. They are probably trickier to use than BCs overall, but are definitely worth it though ;) Flaming Sword of Ruin makes their auto-hits absolutely lethal.

BCs are a mobile roadblock/grinding machine, being almost impervious to str 3 in shooting and melee. They do get wounded easier than Fireborn against high strength hits (str 5 and above), however they can bring the great weapons for some serious blatting. They don't hit as fast or as much as Fireborn but are generally more reliable across 6 games against a variety of opponents, and have a higher M. They can also be joined by a Tau'ruk, which is very handy. He can boost their combat ability (+2 Attacks sword, etc) or their staying power (Crown of Command). I would take BCs as either small units of 3 (opportunist hunters for war machines, chaff, cav) or a brick of 5-7 with a Tau'ruk for when you really want to stampede someone's face :)

Bitterman:

Bull Centaurs are Monstrous Beasts, which only get 1 attack from supporting ranks; so at 2x2 you lose attacks compared to 4x1. Fireborn are Monstrous Infantry, which get up to 3 attacks (though they only have 2 each of course) from supporting ranks; so at 2x2 you don’t lose attacks. In either case, you lose Stomps from the second rank.

I’d rather run BC in 4x1 (maximise those S6 attacks) and Fireborn in 2x2 (only lose stomps, less frontage to be attacked back). In either case I’d rather increase the unit size to 6 and run 3x2 if I could find the points. I’d personally choose BCs over Fireborn… though those Fireborn models are sweeeeeeet.

I’m still not sure why Monstrous Beasts and Monstrous Cavalry can’t get extra supporting attacks like Monstrous Infantry can. I wonder if it was an oversight.

KramDratta:

@Bitterman: That was updated in the FAQ

Page 85 �?" Monstrous Beasts

Add �?oMONSTROUS SUPPORT

Furthermore, a monstrous beast can make as many supporting attacks as are on its profile, up to a maximum of three.�?� to the end of the paragraph.

Insidious:

Thanks for the help, I will definitely be picking up 6 of the Fireborn but will wait for the destroyer and centaur release from FW seeing how I just did an order last week… Go figure the Fireborn are out so soon for preorder. While I know not the favorite models out there for a few of you I personally LOVE the Fireborn, something about the huge chain weapons and just their tower inferno stature. Worse case I can use them for some unit filler or something I guess…

KramDratta:

@Insidious: That’s my thought exactly…

khedyarl:

I was a supporter of BC’s for the longest time, and only recently tried proxying a unit of six Kdaii for a few games.

A unit of Kdaii will annihilate a unit of toughness three infantry on their own. Burning body is a deceptively powerful attack and as baggronor said, flaming sword makes it incredible. Not to mention that most toughness three infantry only have a strength of three - meaning they are only being wounded on sixes. I’ve been using the Burning body/stomp to win combats against toughness three opponents, and Kdaii attacks to kill off heroes (basing most characters with two Kdaii tosses out four strength five attacks plus a burning body hit - nothing to scoff at). It frees Infernal Guard/warmachines up to hit at more powerful units.

Of course, I don’t take a Destroyer, which would fill this role better, for the same cost. But then again, one can say that about basically any unit in the army as opposed to the Destroyer.

Bitterman:

@Bitterman: That was updated in the FAQ

Page 85 �?" Monstrous Beasts
Add �?oMONSTROUS SUPPORT
Furthermore, a monstrous beast can make as many supporting attacks as are on its profile, up to a maximum of three.�?� to the end of the paragraph.

KramDratta
Ooh, I hadn't noticed that! That changes things!