Dînadan:
Now, whether or not GW considers us to be a "system bug" it's hard to say.Considering we're advocates of using non-GW minis and thinking creatively about filling in gaps in the range/replacing the GW sculpts we dislike, I'd say its a safe bet that GW considers CDO a system bug.
Skink
gIL^:
Right now is a golden age of warhammer, The ruleset is better than 4th and 5th. Nostalgia tends to cloud peoples judgement. But were talking of Chaos knights needing to pay +50 pts for Chaos Armour.
Some armies had 20 minis, Some had 200. It was unbalanced as crap.
Skink:
The ruleset is better than 5th.You can say that. Boy, those were my very first games. I felt so bad in fielding the Slann Mage Priest... At the time he was the second most powerful character in the game, right after the Soulthirster. And considering that the Soulthirster was banned from tournaments (at least he was in Milan), Slanns were the most powerful characters in warhammer :D! Good times B) (not).
gIL^
Vex:
I hope FW do release rules to use CD’s to use with AOS and whatever end upo becoming 9th. GW has said recently (check natfka) that all models being sold by GW will be usable in some way in AOS, while that gives me a little hope I’m reminded that GW don’t sell Chaos Dwarves.
Until I hear something solid or i Fantasy does go full round base then my Chaos Dwarves may end up getting locked in the indefinite W.I.P cabinet.
gIL^:
It’s likely we will have to either be dwarfs or warriors for awhile, But cd’s will return don’t worry.
But it’s gonna get mighty quiet on this forum for a few years.
Baggronor:
But it's gonna get mighty quite on this forum for a few years.In many ways I would welcome it - a return to the glory days of CDO when we made everything for ourselves.
gIL^:
We can be warhammer hipsters again!
Malorndk:
Me too. I'm Warhammer 9th Fatigued. I completely demotivated about Warhammer. Sure we will just play 8th if AoS is bad. But right now my mates and I aren't really getting stuff done.This is the case for me as well. I even embrace End Times being a gamemaster for a campaign with meý oldboys. But knowing that what we invested in is coming to an end, and the lack of information about AoS is extremely demotivating...
Bloodbeard
tenebre:
same with our group. the lack of info makes it so much worse. I dont get why they keep it so obfuscated.Me too. I'm Warhammer 9th Fatigued. I completely demotivated about Warhammer. Sure we will just play 8th if AoS is bad. But right now my mates and I aren't really getting stuff done.This is the case for me as well. I even embrace End Times being a gamemaster for a campaign with meý oldboys. But knowing that what we invested in is coming to an end, and the lack of information about AoS is extremely demotivating...
Bloodbeard
Malorndk
Doombeard:
I hope FW do release rules to use CD's to use with AOS and whatever end upo becoming 9th. GW has said recently (check natfka) that all models being sold by GW will be usable in some way in AOS, while that gives me a little hope I'm reminded that GW don't sell Chaos Dwarves.If AoS is just a skirmish game, would you really want to play it with Chaos Dwarf's rather than one of the shiny new cool armies? Its widely rumoured that AoS is a standalone skirmish game, and that the main mass battle system will stay largely unchanged. Sure the army books are being pulled from shelves and online, but fw will update CD's with a pdf , the same way they do with all their stuff which they give for free on their website. So really nothing to panic about IMO, things will just go on the same, unless you want to play the skirmish game AoS
Until I hear something solid or i Fantasy does go full round base then my Chaos Dwarves may end up getting locked in the indefinite W.I.P cabinet.
Vex
Skink:
If AoS is just a skirmish game, would you really want to play it with Chaos Dwarf's rather than one of the shiny new cool armies?Considering the amounts of time, money and effort that I spent collecting (and painting) them? Hell yes.
Doombeard
cornixt:
Whoever decided to pull loads of stuff from the stores and leave the entire community in a state of confused uncertainty, is truly deserving of being fired. Probably lost thousands in sales so far already, even more losses to come when they find that so many people have already switched to a different system. It’s the dumbest business decision they could have made.
Not that I care. Played a small game of Warhammer 6th ed with my son (he played CDs against DE and won). With five different armies at our disposal, I don’t see why we would bother with any newer editions after 7th (played a grand total of one game with 8th ed rules) since they shut down the local GW stores - don’t need to play the newest edition nor use GW-only models. These decisions are so much easier when the company makes them for you by screwing up, and forces you to find your own solutions.
Roark:
Whoever decided to pull loads of stuff from the stores and leave the entire community in a state of confused uncertainty, is truly deserving of being fired.Let's be fair now, they did publish a 10 second promo video to answer everyone's questions and concerns.
cornixt
sam585:
My local independent store told me his rep informed him that Age of Sigmar is a different game entirely, in that it is NOT warhammer fantasy, it is Age of Sigmar. 8th edition is the last edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. No way to really tell until AoS pictures are released and rules are read, but if it is just warhammer fantasy with a 40k spin I doubt the community as a whole would jump on board for that, I know I wont. Likely we will see 3 different communities of Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40k, and Age of Sigmar. Being really caught up in my local (smallish) warhammer community, I cant see us all just dropping fantasy battles for a new game, but I can see us all continually playing 8th Edition, any new players (I have had 2 or 3 new people approach me about getting into warhammer) that I encounter I will just suggest to them how to go about getting rules for their desired army, and the best companies to go to for fantasy miniatures to play Warhammer Fantasy with us on Friday nights. Either way, I am itching to see how AoS turns out, if it is truly bad and not a fantasy army battle game, then I will startup the 8th Edition Warhammmer preservation society with a few other community members, and then kick it off with an escalation event to pull in some new members, if AoS is awesome and fulfills all my hopes and dreams I will also do an escalation event to get the community kickstarted for AoS.
KingFisher:
How would you guys feel about working up a basic list of principles and or units/types of units to request FW make rules for?
Something like a review of all previous army lists and highlighting any gaps in them that would prevent a workable general army list from being created. Essentially what is the “minimum list” we would need for AoS?
Working from “Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs” forward, while I agree 3rd edition chaos dwarf units are interesting they won’t likely make an appearance rule wise, and the most interesting war machines were combines into the skullcracker.
Chaos Dwarf Lord w/optional Great Taurus or Lammasu
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord w/optional Great Taurus, or Lammasu
Bull Centaur Lord
Chaos Dwarf BSB
Bull Centaur BSB
Chaos Dwarf Hero
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Hero
Bull Centaur Hero
Hobgoblin Hero with optional Giant Wolf
Chaos Dwarf Warriors with weapon options: HW/S, GW, Blunderbusses
Bull Centaurs with GW
Hobgoblin Warriors
Hobgoblin Archers
Hobgoblin Sneaky Gits, key rule is +poison
Hobgoblin Wolf Riders
Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower
Chaos Dwarf Earthshaker Cannon
Chaos Dwarf Death Rocket
I will refrain from standard Orc and Goblin units( Black Orcs, Orcs, Goblins) as those can likely be reused from the GW OnG army list, the HG bolt thrower likely can be replaced by a standard goblin bolt thrower.
As well “Monsters” can be ignored as well. Note the Great Taurus can be taken as a solo monster, this maps well to the Scroll version from Storms of Magic.
Since the “old world” is dead, any special characters are dead as well, however the “types” of characters should still carry over. Clearly there is a need for:
Named Chaos Dwarf Warrior w/optional Great Taurus or Lammasu
Named Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord on foot.
Named Hobgoblin General
Ravening Hordes makes no major changes to the army list.
Additions from the LoA list from Tamurkhan generally:
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord w/optional Bale Taurus
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Hero w/ darkforged blade
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard w/options for HW/S, GW, Blunderbuss, Fireglaive
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Ironsworn w/ ensorcelled blade
K’daai Fire Born
Magma Cannon
Iron Daemon w/skullcracker option.
K’daai Destroyer
Hellcannon
Chaos Siege Giant
Named Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord with named mount.
Let me know if you think I forgot anything of import.
So here is my proposed Army list combing the influences of above.
Working backwards from LoA we get:
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord w/optional Bale Taurus, Great Taurus, or Lammasu
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard Hero
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard BSB
Chaos Dwarf Daemonsmith Sorcerer Hero w/ dark forged blade
Hobgoblin Hero with optional Giant Wolf
Bull Centaur Hero
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard w/options for HW/S, GW, Blunderbuss, Fireglaive
Hobgoblin “Cutthroat” Warriors w/ options for AHW, S, B
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Ironsworn w/ ensorcelled blade
Bull Centaur Renders w/options HW/S AHW/ GW / Spear
K’daai Fire Born
Magma Cannon
Death Shrieker Rocket
Iron Daemon w/skullcracker option.
K’daai Destroyer
Hellcannon
Hobgoblin Wolf Raiders
Dreadquake Mortar
Chaos Siege Giant
Named Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord with named mount.
Now if you assume the war-machines all substitute. As do the various Hobgoblin units (warriors, archers, wolf riders) the missing options from the previous editions are:
Chaos Dwarf Lord w/optional Great Taurus, Bale Taurus or Lammasu.
Bull Centaur Lord with many weapon choices
Bull Centaur BSB
Hobgoblin Hero with optional Giant Wolf
Hobgoblin Sneaky Gits, key rule is +poison
Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower
Named Chaos Dwarf Warrior Lord w/optional Great Taurus, Bale Taurus, Lammasu or named mount. (Zhatan)
Named Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord on foot. (Astragoth)
Named Hobgoblin Lord on foot (Groduz)
Named Hobgoblin Hero on Wolf (Ghazak and Ooglah)
As well I would argue that “standard” Chaos Dwarf Warriors were missing from LoA as were “standard” Bull Centaurs.
This of course means that “standard” heroes were missing as well these should have stat lines and costs right out of RH.
Chaos Dwarf Hero
Bull Centaur Hero
I think it would be best for FW to follow the GW Dwarfs book model and have several “Levels” of warriors.
Chaos Dwarf Warriors w: HA HW/S for 9pts options: GW 2pt or Blunderbuss 3pts same costs and stat as in RH
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard w: BSA HW/S 12pts options for GW 2pt or Firegaive 4pts, same stats as in LoA
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Infernal Ironsworn w: BSA, Ensorcelled HW/S 16pts option, add “melee focused” 2 handed Dark Forged weapon ability (Hatred, BW equal to units frontage, Lifebane, Armor cringing, Possessed, 5+ ward) 4 pts each.
I would do the same for Bull Centaurs, this would allow for use of old models, and they would fulfill the roll of heavy Cav but without being a Monstrous Beast/Cav.
Bull Centaurs should follow the RH info but default to having spears/shields/light armor, add scaly skin 6+. You could add GW or AHW and HA. I would argue these should be able to be a BSB not the Bull Centaurs renders.
Now that I have explained my thoughts process, here is my requested Army list for Chaos Dwarfs plus Green skin slaves.
Not this tries to tie all models to an existing example in the rules.
Also in general I would revise the “train” rules so a hellbound car has some movement options like a possessed hell-cannon.
Characters:
Named Chaos Dwarf Warrior Lord w/optional . Great Taurus, Bale Taurus, Lammasu or named mount Bale Taurus. (Zhatan)
Named Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord w/optional Great Taurus, Bale Taurus, Lammasu or named mount Lammasu. (Drazhoath)
Named Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord on foot. (Astragoth)
Named Hobgoblin Lord on foot (Groduz)
Named Hobgoblin Hero on Wolf (Ghazak and Ooglah)
Lords:
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord (Levels 3 or 4) w/optional Bale Taurus, Great Taurus, or Lammasu
Chaos Dwarf Lord w/optional Great Taurus, Bale Taurus or Lammasu
Bull Centaur Render Lord
Heros:
Chaos Dwarf Hero
Chaos Dwarf Hero BSB
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard Hero
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard BSB
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Ironsworn
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Ironsworn BSB
Bull Centaur Hero
Bull Centaur Hero BSB
Bull Centaur Taur’uk
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer (levels 1 or 2) Hero w/ dark forged blade.
Chaos Dwarf Daemonsmith (levels 1 or 2) Hero w/ dark forged blade.
Hobgoblin Hero with optional Giant Wolf
Core:
Chaos Dwarf Warriors As detailed above
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard As detailed above
Hobgoblin Warrior/Archer "Cutthroats"
Bull Centaurs As detailed above
Hobgoblin Wolf Riders
Special:
Black Orcs
Orcs
Goblins
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Infernal Ironsworn As detailed above
Hobgoblin bolt thrower (Really just OnG bolter thrower)
Hobgoblin Sneaky Gits, key rule is +poison
Death Shrieker Rocket
Magma Cannon
K’daai Fire Born
Bull Centaur Renders
Iron Daemon w/skullcracker option.
Rares:
K’daai Destroyer
Hellcannon
Dreadquake Mortar
Chaos Siege Giant
Feedback?
Doombeard:
this is a moot point until AoS is released?
KingFisher:
this is a moot point until AoS is released?I don't think the exercise is moot, given the communities efforts around the LoA FAQ it shows if organized we can effect change.
Doombeard
Grimstonefire:
Ruleswise if 8th still stands I think it should be easy to just relabel LoA as Legion of Hashut and just make it 8th ed playable.
AoS sounds like quite a change of rules so would require more work.
Imo any fan support that actually changes the rules or adds anything new will not be supported by FW. We can request clarifications, but I don’t think anything else is worth doing.
Bear in mind if GW want to release a unit of Chaos Dwarfs in plastic they will come with their own rules and at that point we can do something to bring them back into our list.
Off topic, but if I were to change the rules for hellbound I’d make the warmachines into monsters.
KingFisher:
Ruleswise if 8th still stands I think it should be easy to just relabel LoA as Legion of Hashut and just make it 8th ed playable.I agreed with with general Hellbound>Daemon Monster theme in general.
AoS sounds like quite a change of rules so would require more work.
Imo any fan support that actually changes the rules or adds anything new will not be supported by FW. We can request clarifications, but I don't think anything else is worth doing.
Bear in mind if GW want to release a unit of Chaos Dwarfs in plastic they will come with their own rules and at that point we can do something to bring them back into our list.
Off topic, but if I were to change the rules for hellbound I'd make the warmachines into monsters.
Grimstonefire
sam585:
Will be interesting to see how they update the chaos dwarfs for age of sigmar, as for the design change our legion of azgorh units look like they fit in quite nicely with the warhammer aesthetic changes, with our all encompassing armor, and super bestiary looking bull centaurs. Our warmachines are also very futuristic looking, so I am very optimistic about our legion of azgorh collections being compatible in some form.