wallacer:
The joys of political correctness.
two_heads_talking:
Political correctness… phooey. That’s for those who aren’t able to use their grey matter for anything besides to just keep their ears apart.
Godbob and his jolly rogers:
Wait. Bilbo are you gathering a collection!?! 
Sojourn:
Its always the intent behind the word that matters. A friend of mine regularly refers to me as a bl**dy Mik or damn Paddy, especially when I beat him, and I know its done in a jokey and affectionate way, in exactly the same way as me calling him a short arse. That said if somebody starts sl*ging off Irish people then I'll take offense, just as I would if I saw someone being bullied over their height.I think AGPO makes a good point, that *you* may know that it's not offensive/meant in a joking way, but what about if someone overhears you, not knowing it's a joke. then it actually could offend someone, and you never even meant it. I remember an episode of "Without a Trace" when someone overheard someone say "I'd blow the place up" and thought it was a terrorist thought, when infact, the entire conversation was referring to an old baseball park that needed renovations and a rebuild.
AGPO
You just don't want to be in a position were you have to try to defend your position of some sort of 'derogatory' term being affectionate when used towards a friend. then explain that to a kiddie. GOOD LUCK.
I said 'smithereens' Bilbo! add that to the list... and use whippersnapper when referring to young'uns! ;)
Xander:
I am inclined to disagree with you here on several points.Free Speech trumps all. However, it's their place of business, as was said, so they can their own rules.Let's remember Free speach doesn't give you the right to say anything you want, it just gives you the right to be able to speak and not be quited. If your useage of free speach infringes on someone elses rights, then you've crossed the line..
I tend to agree that people are hypersensitive about being offended, especially by mere words.
Xander
For example, you walk into a bar of bikers and tell them that all bikers are a bunch of momma's boys and they obviously like the company of other men. You are free to speak that way, but at the same time, you will incur the wrath of the bikers who will now invoke their right to bear arms and beat you senseless..
Learning when to shut ones mouth is just as important as learning when it's appropriate to open is.
two_heads_talking
Again I reiterate, free speech trumps all. That being said, perhaps I need to qualify what I mean. Free speech is the right to speak one's mind about any topic. ANY topic. Now let's breakdown your statements and deal with them separately.
Let's remember Free speach doesn't give you the right to say anything you want, it just gives you the right to be able to speak and not be quited.If by quitted you mean arrested, then good. But free speech essentially does give you the right to say anything you want. Aside from threatening people directly, perhaps.
If your useage of free speach infringes on someone elses rights, then you've crossed the line.Speech by definition cannot inflict damage on anyone. Speech is mere words, unless you are making threats, which is unlawful. But by threats I mean specific threats, "I will kill you," for example.
For example, you walk into a bar of bikers and tell them that all bikers are a bunch of momma's boys and they obviously like the company of other men. You are free to speak that way, but at the same time, you will incur the wrath of the bikers who will now invoke their right to bear arms and beat you senseless.Actually, you have every right to say that without being assaulted. But the chances you would be assaulted are high, so therefore it's merely unwise to state these opinions in such a place. But the message "bikers are a bunch of momma's boys" is perfectly valid free speech, and does not infringe the rights of anyone.
Learning when to shut ones mouth is just as important as learning when it's appropriate to open is.Well, yes, you have to be smart about when you choose to exercise your right of free speech.
All that being said. A time and a place for everything. And GW is not a place where you are permitted your free speech, as it's a privately held place of business.
Alas, it is silly that you can't say Hell while GW sells Hellblasters and Hellcannons.
For more concise arguments on the free speech question, I invite you to watch the following video for which I have 100% agreement:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6379618149058958603&ei=N_tsSZyiFpCq-wGEuciWCg&q=free+speech&hl=en
Kera foehunter:
Freedom of speech !! just ask Larry Flint!!!
btw what happen to respect!!! your in someone store now behave like a human !!
you learn all the ins and outs in kindergarten!!
What would you do if someone start cussing in your house
at your girl friend guys ?? there your freedom of speech
you probably kick there ass!!
dedwrekka:
It is their store but they should use common sense. Wait common sense has died because nobody reads the book anymore.Common sense was knowing how to shoe a horse or fix your own car from top to bottom if you owned one back in the late 1800s, you honestly can't expect "common" sense to change over the years. IT also is anything but common, often used to describe uncommon knowledge by someone who knows about it to someone who doesn't.
BilboBaggins
Several points to bear in mind:Funnily enough "A$$" only became a curse word when people started to compare people to one. It's also acceptable to use in a lot of company.
Language considered vulgar changes depending on where in the world you are. "B*l*cks" is considered uncouth here, but it's not really known in the US I believe. In the US "A$$" could be considered bad, but here, it's just a donkey, and folks would have a problem with "Ar$e". "Hell" will be no problem here, and apparently "cr@p" is fine in the US.
slev
I guess we should use these instead:If anyone said anything like that anywhere near me, I'd feel compelled to call them a dork.
I'll blow you back to the Chaos Wastes.
I'll send you back to the Daemonic Lands
I'll blast you to Hades
My Heckblaster will send you to H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.
My Black Orks will go mid-evil on you buns.
The Heck Cannon unleashed it's Demonic Fury and put your souls into the void.
:cheers
BilboBaggins
I'm sorry, but being offended by a word that has no racial/sexual/social bias and isn't directed at you has always seemed over the top to me, especially when you're not in the conversation. Usually when someone gets offended by a word like that, that's the only part they hear of the conversation because they've tuned in to hearing just those words.Its always the intent behind the word that matters. A friend of mine regularly refers to me as a bl**dy Mik or damn Paddy, especially when I beat him, and I know its done in a jokey and affectionate way, in exactly the same way as me calling him a short arse. That said if somebody starts sl*ging off Irish people then I'll take offense, just as I would if I saw someone being bullied over their height.I think AGPO makes a good point, that *you* may know that it's not offensive/meant in a joking way, but what about if someone overhears you, not knowing it's a joke. then it actually could offend someone, and you never even meant it. I remember an episode of "Without a Trace" when someone overheard someone say "I'd blow the place up" and thought it was a terrorist thought, when infact, the entire conversation was referring to an old baseball park that needed renovations and a rebuild.
AGPO
You just don't want to be in a position were you have to try to defend your position of some sort of 'derogatory' term being affectionate when used towards a friend. then explain that to a kiddie. GOOD LUCK.
I said 'smithereens' Bilbo! add that to the list... and use whippersnapper when referring to young'uns! ;)
Sojourn
It's almost as silly as sugar coating words, if I heard someone say "bottom" or "derriere" I'd think "A$$" or Butt. If someone hears a word you dont want them to say, there's no getting it out of their head, and you can't shield them from hearing the words. It's ridiculous in a gamer society, especially.
I no more expect the person across the table to watch their mouth than I expect an Imperial Guardsmen to yell "Pooooopy!" when getting shot, or for them to censor their models (which regularly show unrealistic amounts of cleavage or number or breasts, or blood/guts/gore). But then I've always found it funny that we (the west), as a meta-society, are okay with watching or hearing about someone getting shot, so long as they keep their wits about them by censoring their language.
Freedom of speech !! just ask Larry Flint!!!!!I probably wouldn't notice it. I do my own part to watch my language when around kids, but I'm not going to expect everyone to. I'm certainly not going to censor myself or anyone else when I'm alone, with friends, or with family. Outside of websites and work, I swear like a New Yorker.
btw what happen to respect!!! your in someone store now behave like a human !!
you learn all the ins and outs in kindergarten!!
What would you do if someone start cussing in your house
at your girl friend guys ?? there your freedom of speech
you probably kick there ass!!
Kera foehunter
Ghrask Dragh:
This is the first time on any forum I have seen a thread shoot up 45+ posts in a single day 
Just to keep this relatively on topic, I think political correctness has gone mad now days, people just need to chill out abit and use some common sense.
It’s all good, make love not war.
Theory_Man:
Slander can inflict damage damage to people (and their lives) and slander can be in the form of speech. Therefore, Speech can inflict damage to someone.If your useage of free speach infringes on someone elses rights, then you've crossed the line.Speech by definition cannot inflict damage on anyone. Speech is mere words, unless you are making threats, which is unlawful. But by threats I mean specific threats, "I will kill you," for example.
Xander
GRNDL:
Freedom of speech definitely does not give you the right to say whatever you want, especially in a public place. There are rights of individuals that need to be protected and a lot of laws covering them, such as anything related to Hate crimes. The type of language used and the delivery could get you arrested, at least in Canada. If you were shouting out racial and religious epithets from the street corner, as opposed to shouting out reasoning, you would be arrested for disturbing the peace. There is a lot of difference between people discussing matters freely and openly in public and people antagonizing each other and passersby.
BilboBaggins:
50 posts in under 24 hours, cool.
The start of this wasn’t my intention to have a freedom of speech issue, OK it is a freedom of speech issue. It was merely to find out what people thought about a store trying to censor speech that had been OK in the store for the nearly 10 years I’ve been playing LOTR and Warhammer.
It all started with the word Hell.
GW has Hell Spawn, Hell Cannon, Hell Blaster (now Helblaster and it’s sister Helstorm).
Add the facts that the they also produce:
Deamonettes, I know one girl (she worked at GW for a short time) that was planning an x rated army of them.
Gargrim Ironfist (Ungrim’s son) is an anatomically correct naked slayer model (look closely from the rear).
Don’t get me started on Slanessh (God of Pleasure). My wife talked a kid out of buying a greater daemon of slanessh because she didn’t think the kids parents would like him having it.
I will follow their rules of speech but I don’t have to like it. :hat
Kera foehunter:
lol the naked slayer there warmourner they go into battle naked they are a group of slayers
but gw put a beards over there dwarf hood !!!
well gw fixed the deamoneets sorry all you guys
slev:
A friend of mine regularly refers to me as a bl**dy Mik or damn Paddy, especially when I beat him, and I know its done in a jokey and affectionate way, in exactly the same way as me calling him a short arse.I have one friend who I call "Bastard". As his name. People are confused. Similarly, my g/f is known as "Wench", and becomes confused when people ask her her 'real' name.
AGPO
I think it was grade 6 when I finally called my mom out for saying 'cr@p' and said "if you can say it, I can too!" and she agreed.My parents took pains to teach me that everyone was equal, after I was confused by ant-apartheid riots. I took this quite literally (ASDNOD). I hence told off my aunt for swearing, repetitively. She would then tell me off for speaking to adults that way & I would tell her off for ageism, before she told me off again for speaking to adults that way.Needless to say she and I never got on again, and my parents where at a loss to try and de-program equality from my internal logic that they had tried so hard to instil.
Sojourn
Re: Freedom of Speech - This would be more accurately be titled "Freedom of communication". We should be free to communicate thoughts, ideas, feelings, theories, opinions and information.
I once wrote the following: "The freedom which society grants to each individual is complete and total save where their actions would interdict in the freedoms of others, and are granted with the cost that they must be exercised with responsibility."
BilboBaggins:
I’ve use the Warmonger in a few games with my Slayer army. Before they changed the Dwarf runes he could go doomseeker in for the first round of combat and auto hit the guys in base contact and auto wound everyone he hits. Now he wounds on a 2+ always I think.
Heard a few curses about him and the goblin hewer. The hewer can chop a unit to pieces very quickly. The real fun is hitting skellies kill a bunch and then they get raised next turn. Vamps vs Slayers the game never ends.
I played a freind in my first tourney who was running his four horseman of Tzeench army (14 models, 4 magic casters at 2K points) against my Empire. I was going crazy (at the time I had a perfect record against Chaos, I had not won one) muttering curses about his knights. He muttered curses when I took out his two chariots with one cannon shot. He told me later he put the army together for the purpose of driving Empire players nuts. He expected more Empire in the tourney but several regulars switched up on him. Took me 3 tries to beat his Tzeench army on the challenge board. I still haven’t beaten is Vamps, he’s a very good player.
I had a few people mildly curse when I played empire, at the time I had a knack of hitting models on the head with my cannon guesses and rolls.
Now even those mild curses would be taboo at GW.
BilboBaggins:
Re: Freedom of Speech - This would be more accurately be titled "Freedom of communication". We should be free to communicate thoughts, ideas, feelings, theories, opinions and information.Freedom of speech doesn't just mean you have the right to say your point of view at the top of your lungs, it's defending the right of someone else stating theirs at the top of theirs.
I once wrote the following: "The freedom which society grants to each individual is complete and total save where their actions would interdict in the freedoms of others, and are granted with the cost that they must be exercised with responsibility."
slev
slev:
Freedom of speech doesn't just mean you have the right to say your point of view at the top of your lungs, it's defending the right of someone else stating theirs at the top of theirs.As the yelling would be interdicting in the freedoms of others via introducing noise pollution, you would not have that right. Other people also have a right to be left alone if they so choose. However, beyond the method of communication, the actual expression of an opinion, even an odious one, is within the rights of an individual.
BilboBaggins
two_heads_talking:
In essence, you aren't disagreeing with me at all. You are agreeing with everything I've stated.. We are merely arguing the same point from 2 different vantages.I am inclined to disagree with you here on several points.Free Speech trumps all. However, it's their place of business, as was said, so they can their own rules.Let's remember Free speach doesn't give you the right to say anything you want, it just gives you the right to be able to speak and not be quited. If your useage of free speach infringes on someone elses rights, then you've crossed the line..
I tend to agree that people are hypersensitive about being offended, especially by mere words.
Xander
For example, you walk into a bar of bikers and tell them that all bikers are a bunch of momma's boys and they obviously like the company of other men. You are free to speak that way, but at the same time, you will incur the wrath of the bikers who will now invoke their right to bear arms and beat you senseless..
Learning when to shut ones mouth is just as important as learning when it's appropriate to open is.
two_heads_talking
Again I reiterate, free speech trumps all. That being said, perhaps I need to qualify what I mean. Free speech is the right to speak one's mind about any topic. ANY topic. Now let's breakdown your statements and deal with them separately.Let's remember Free speach doesn't give you the right to say anything you want, it just gives you the right to be able to speak and not be quited.If by quitted you mean arrested, then good. But free speech essentially does give you the right to say anything you want. Aside from threatening people directly, perhaps.If your useage of free speach infringes on someone elses rights, then you've crossed the line.Speech by definition cannot inflict damage on anyone. Speech is mere words, unless you are making threats, which is unlawful. But by threats I mean specific threats, "I will kill you," for example.For example, you walk into a bar of bikers and tell them that all bikers are a bunch of momma's boys and they obviously like the company of other men. You are free to speak that way, but at the same time, you will incur the wrath of the bikers who will now invoke their right to bear arms and beat you senseless.Actually, you have every right to say that without being assaulted. But the chances you would be assaulted are high, so therefore it's merely unwise to state these opinions in such a place. But the message "bikers are a bunch of momma's boys" is perfectly valid free speech, and does not infringe the rights of anyone.Learning when to shut ones mouth is just as important as learning when it's appropriate to open is.Well, yes, you have to be smart about when you choose to exercise your right of free speech.
All that being said. A time and a place for everything. And GW is not a place where you are permitted your free speech, as it's a privately held place of business.
Xander
two_heads_talking:
This is the first time on any forum I have seen a thread shoot up 45+ posts in a single day :DExactly! Common sense trumps political correctness.
Just to keep this relatively on topic, I think political correctness has gone mad now days, people just need to chill out abit and use some common sense.
It's all good, make love not war.
Ghrask Dragh
Sojourn:
Speech by definition cannot inflict damage on anyone. Speech is mere words, unless you are making threats, which is unlawful. But by threats I mean specific threats, "I will kill you," for example.I still maintain you're a hypocrite as you would request I not swear when we talked on the phone if I was angry about something. Is this not limited and restricting my right to free speech? you said it was because the words are hurtful, when infact, words cannot inflict damage, as indicated above.
Xander
So Xander, I will now continue to curse like a sailor. ;)
I'm sorry, but being offended by a word that has no racial/sexual/social bias and isn't directed at you has always seemed over the top to me, especially when you're not in the conversation. Usually when someone gets offended by a word like that, that's the only part they hear of the conversation because they've tuned in to hearing just those words.I suggested that perhaps it did have some other connotation, AND that it was heard out of context, and that is how people can take offense to it. now look, I'm not one to be easily offended, but I can see how others can. I'm sure we can all think of words that when you hear them you cringe. and if you don't, then words mean nothing to you. The essence of language and words is to convey feelings, thoughts and emotions. If words are just letters mashed together to you, then you cannot communicate properly. And that is the difficulty with language. When words mean different things to different people, they can be misinterpreted. This is why free speech is dangerous as words can be as logical as sun in the daytime, but use the wrong string of words together, and you've just suggested something you did not mean.
If you are using words, especially ones that may have a religious meaning to some (h*ll for example, maybe 'the lords name' etc) it can be offensive. Just remember that people hold different values. I'm not saying we should walk around 'sugar coating' our words, but word selection is important, and part of what makes your ability to communicate effective. Just as you may not want someone making remarks about a member of your family, or your heritage, or who knows what pushes your button, others don't want it as well.
Xander has always said I can use words in a very, sharp way. In that what I say in and of itself isn't mean, but the way I formulate my sentences or present my points and the words used make the comments poignant to the person directed towards.
It comes down to just being a pleasant person. Be kind, it's a common courtesy.
and PS - a point on the Slaanesh army. I don't like them. I don't like most models offered by GW. I've said all along it's annoying that the only female models are either butch male-like figures, OR trampy ho's with leather in some strategically placed spots. It does nothing to get me involved in the army. Instead it basically alienates me from the hobby because I feel there is nothing similar to me beyond wood elves.
Xander:
In essence, you aren't disagreeing with me at all. You are agreeing with everything I've stated.. We are merely arguing the same point from 2 different vantages.Glad we agree! *thumbs up*
two_heads_talking
As for Sojourn's comments, Free Speech, in the manner I speak about, is what is lawful or not: what you can be arrested for saying. I would never seek to have someone arrested or prevented from expressing their mind through free speech. That is all I seek to argue. Whether one person should swear to another is a matter for individuals to resolve, not the state.