My brother and I were playing a game today and we found ourselves at a question about the Default spell from the FW book which grants hatred.
"The target units become subject to Hatred while the spells is in effect."
Say you cast hatred on a unit, it gets into combat on round one of that combat the hatred is used up. There would be no Hatred on the other players turn when they engage in combat with your unit. Then on your turn can you cast hatred on the unit again?
I am unsure because hatred according to the BRB only has an effect in the first round of combat.
So what is it the first round of combat or the first round of combat since the Hatred was applied to the unit?
I saw that the same thing has come up in the past (not on CDO to my knowledge) with regards to Empire Flagellants. At the start of each round of close combat (yours or your enemy’s) you can choose to sacrifice some number of Flagellants in order to gain Hatred.
So just running through the rules for my own benefit to help with my train of thought here…
The BRB states that Hatred allows a model to re-roll all misses in the first round of close combat, with subsequent rounds fought normally.
The BRB seems clear that Hatred only works for that initial golden opportunity, not when you’re already locked in a second round of close combat or later, nor if you receive a flank or rear charge while already in close combat. You need to be totally out of close combat with all opponents before that magical and elusive first round of close combat happens again for your model(s).
By way of example:
For Flagellants, it seems that the rules in the Empire book were perhaps intended for them to gain Hatred as needed in any round of close combat, however that rule seems poorly written and nowhere does it doesn’t clearly state anything different from the Hatred definition in the BRB. Yes, Flagellants can sacrifice themselves in round 2 or later and the unit gains Hatred, but that’s where the special rule ends, you look up Hatred in the BRB and find that you’ve just sacrificed them for nothing. As far as I can find this has never been FAQ’ed, and maybe it doesn’t need to be.
With the above example in mind, the Hatred rule is very clear - First round of close combat. The draft version of the Lore of Hashut signature spell, Voice of Hatred, is an augment spell, and can therefore be cast on units in close combat (but never enemies). So your best use of this is to cast it on a unit that is likely to be in close combat very soon, or one that has perhaps just completed a successful charge, you cast Voice of Hatred during your Magic phase, and then take advantage of the effect in the Close Combat phase that same turn.
That’s what I think anyway, but I’ve only been playing WHFB for about a year or so
By way of example: For Flagellants, it seems that the rules in the Empire book were perhaps intended for them to gain Hatred as needed in any round of close combat, however that rule seems poorly written and nowhere does it doesn't clearly state anything different from the Hatred definition in the BRB. Yes, Flagellants can sacrifice themselves in round 2 or later and the unit gains Hatred, but that's where the special rule ends, you look up Hatred in the BRB and find that you've just sacrificed them for nothing. As far as I can find this has never been FAQ'ed, and maybe it doesn't need to be.
Nicodemus
Actually as an Empire player I know the answer to this is the opposite:
Q. When a player martyrs Flagellants in a second or subsequent round of combat, do they get to re-roll missed attacks? (p54) A. Yes.
8th Edition Empire FAQ
Taking that, the answer might be yes to the spell's affect if recast. My local gaming store has several Empire players who think it's a fair way to read it.
--Edit--
I confirm what Nicodemus said : only for the first round of close. No use for the next rounds. No matter spell or special rules...
zhatan87
There are exceptions, the army book always overwrites the mainbook. It's like a High Elf with great weapons, they still have always strikes first, and go on their initiative, they simply ignore the always strikes last rule.
Q. When a player martyrs Flagellants in a second or subsequent
round of combat, do they get to re-roll missed attacks? (p54)
A. Yes.
8th Edition Empire FAQ
Taking that, the answer might be yes to the spell's affect if recast. My local gaming store has several Empire players who think it's a fair way to read it.
Ogre_Mage
Thanks for the tip! When last I had looked into this it hadn't been FAQ'ed as far as I could find. Even with the Flagellant's FAQ ruling, I still think Voice of Hatred would only work in the first round, unless the spell text is modified to overrule the BRB Hatred rules, or it gets FAQ'ed. Being a FW thing, we're unlikely to get an FAQ on it unless we were to do it ourselves, and for this kind of thing I don't think the Chaos Dwarf community would step over the line of ruling in our own favour in the way the Flagellants were. The members on here who have done the Ravening Hordes CD FAQ have been very cautious not to made such changes just to ensure that it's not deemed unfair by others in the community who we play against.
This issue of FAQs however, is still something to keep in mind and maybe this could go on a short list for things we could ask FW or GW to comment on (if we could get blood from a stone)... I play against a Skaven player who usually takes the weapon that gives him Hatred against Dwarfs and uses it against Chaos Dwarfs to the same effect.. although back in 4th ED there was a ruling that such items only work on Dwarfs, not Chaos Dwarfs IIRC. Such a distinction has been a moot point for the main fantasy community for a while so we've been building up questions like this for a while.
Personally, I'm OK with Voice of Hatred only working in the 1st round of close combat, as per the Hatred rules, but I wouldn't say no to something better either ;)
It may also be worth considering Beastmen. at the start of every round or combat you make a test and you may get hatred for that round. In the next round you test again, and you can get it (and benefit from it again) and so on. My vote would be for the first round after the spell is cast, and if the spell ends or is dispelled and then re-cast you can benefit from it again and so on.
Regarding the High Elves GW ASF and the Flagellants’ martyrdom: that’s because of the FAQ, not the rules in the book. Read Speed of Asuryan and it doesn’t say that it negates the ASL effect of Great Weapons. Read the Empire book and it says gain Hatred.
Thusly, you read the rules as they are and you only go with the re-rolls in other rounds if something says so.
Basically, Hatred only works when somebody charges (multiple unit combats, it’s on a per unit basis. If two have been in combat and a third enters, that third unit could use Hatred and the others couldn’t). Recasting the spell wouldn’t make a difference. Think of it like lances: cast a spell that gives you lances and you’ve been in combat, so you don’t get the +2S.
It may also be worth considering Beastmen. at the start of every round or combat you make a test and you may get hatred for that round. In the next round you test again, and you can get it (and benefit from it again) and so on. My vote would be for the first round after the spell is cast, and if the spell ends or is dispelled and then re-cast you can benefit from it again and so on.
Neil
This is different. Maybe I should have posted yesterday as I thought... Beastmen have a special allowance in their rules which states explicitly that we get re-rolls even in subsequent turns.
Regarding the High Elves GW ASF and the Flagellants' martyrdom: that's because of the FAQ, not the rules in the book. Read Speed of Asuryan and it doesn't say that it negates the ASL effect of Great Weapons. Read the Empire book and it says gain Hatred.
Thusly, you read the rules as they are and you only go with the re-rolls in other rounds if something says so.
Basically, Hatred only works when somebody charges (multiple unit combats, it's on a per unit basis. If two have been in combat and a third enters, that third unit could use Hatred and the others couldn't). Recasting the spell wouldn't make a difference. Think of it like lances: cast a spell that gives you lances and you've been in combat, so you don't get the +2S.
Hashut's Blessing
Yup, I gotta agree with this interpretation. Yesterday I was thinking about the DE Assassin which had a FAQ saying it would get the re-rolls if he was revealed in a later combat round, but I found they had reversed this decision. So to me it seems unless otherwise specified, like the Flagellant FAQ or Beastman rule then Hatred only works in a first round of combat, regardless if the rule was "added" later and thus hasn't been "used up" yet. Oh, you are wrong about the HEs though. As mentioned below. The rule doesn't specifically say it true, but the wording of the rule in the book is the reason the FAQ was ruled as it was.
I couldn’t disagree with you more, Hashut’s Blessing…
The wording of the spell would be more in line with other augment type spells.
& as such would be something along the lines of:
“target friendly unit within x” is subject to Hatred until the caster’s next magic phase."
So you would gain Hatred in the next combat phase…
We just can’t rely on FW game design team to be any good at writing rules.
But anyway, with the wording being like that you can have hatred every turn, similar to the Beastmen “Primal Fury” rule, & the Flagellant “Martyr” rule. Otherwise this signature spell will be totally USELESS.
Also, the Sword Masters do always strike first, as per the Speed of Asuryan…
I’m not sure if you know this but the army book will always take precedence in these kind of conflicting situations.
You would gain Hatred, but it would be useless unless you charged that turn. Hatred affects round one of a combat. Flails affect round one of a combat. The spell gives them the rule for a round. If that’s not the first round of combat, it doesn’t do anything.
It’s not totally useless - use it on a turn that you charge or when you expect to be charged…
It says they always strike first, not that they ignore the always strike last as well. It’s the FAQ that means they ignore the GW’s ASL.
I’m definitely in the camp that you will get re-roll�?Ts the first turn after you cast it. I think the flagellants FAQ has set a precedent that if you somehow get hatred after the first turn then you get to re-roll. The cause may be different but surely the effect is still the same? I don�?Tt think it�?Ts unreasonable to think that.
For me the high elf issue is completely different.
I think the intent is to give hatred re-rolls every time the spell is cast, they just worded it appallingly.
Otherwise it would be a rubbish default spell… Dwarfs are slower than most troops as it is, and it would only be of any value on that first combat phase…
Its already pointless until your M3 troops get into combat, it would be the Most Pointless Spell Ever if it was only worthwhile for one phase of the game, assuming you got to charge.
There are exceptions, the army book always overwrites the mainbook. It's like a High Elf with great weapons, they still have always strikes first, and go on their initiative, they simply ignore the always strikes last rule.
I know I should have said "unless there is an exception, such as a FAQ."
I only answer to the initial question : hatred rule only works on the first round of close. Flagellants have a FAQ which answer only to the question for flagellants... In theory, FAQ should'nt be transposed to an other case. That's why I (should have) said : only first round, no matter spell or special rules "unless there is an exception" (such as a FAQ)...
I think the intent is to give hatred re-rolls every time the spell is cast, they just worded it appallingly.
Otherwise it would be a rubbish default spell...
...Its already pointless until your M3 troops get into combat, it would be the Most Pointless Spell Ever if it was only worthwhile for one phase of the game...
Baggronor
Thank you, Baggronor.
Of course the intention is to give Hatred re-rolls to a friendly unit, regardless of the turn of combat.
& would therefore be reflected in the wording of the spell.
It would be officially the worst spell in the game otherwise.
I think the intent is to give hatred re-rolls every time the spell is cast, they just worded it appallingly.
Otherwise it would be a rubbish default spell... Dwarfs are slower than most troops as it is, and it would only be of any value on that first combat phase...
Its already pointless until your M3 troops get into combat, it would be the Most Pointless Spell Ever if it was only worthwhile for one phase of the game, assuming you got to charge.
Baggronor
The intent and what they've said are very different. It's not too difficult to say "may re-roll missed to hit rolls in the next round of combat". Also, you can cast it on a unit you expect to get charged by your opponent because it's until your next magic phase.
Lastly, the FAQ of another army can't be applied to a new rule in a new list...
As an after-thought: this may not even be how it works in Tamurkhan anyway, lol.
Agreed. RAW and RAI are two very different things. We have to play by the rules, and what they clearly state. Hatred specifies that it only works on the first round of combat.
Maybe the BRB should have some sort of note for “Hatred will work the next round if a unit gains it throughout the course of a game.” But it doesn’t. That would be an easy fix for a BRB FAQ or a more general rule within an army FAQ, but GW has decided to put very specific clarifications within individual army book FAQs instead.
As HB pointed out, you cannot take a FAQ from one army, and assume that it should apply to another. It may be fine for friendly games in a basement, but at a tourney, no one will let you bend the rules. So its probably a bad idea to get used to them that way.
Everyone should keep in mind that the leaked list is hardly a final version, and in many cases seems to paraphrase. The wording as written is likely to be different by the time it hits print. FW does occasionally release clarifications, so its not impossible to be changed down the road either. If you want a clarification send in rules questions to GW like "If a unit which is in combat gains hatred, do they reroll hits the next round (ie: first round of combat with the rule)?"
Just as an aside: High Elves ASF vs ASL is sort of a different matter than Hatred. In 7th, ASL was a weapon quality, while in 8th it is a special rule most often granted by a weapon. You can’t really blame an old codex for not anticipating the change between the two, or the difference between.
Until they tell you that it applies on the first round of combat that they have Hatred in, it is just the first round of combat that they are in. The wording in the list WILL change (not necessarily on this spell), purely because so much of it was poorly written.
Regarding HE: Actually, it just says regardless of weapon. Even in 7th edition, it said that if a weapon would make you strike last and you had always strike first, that you would strike in initiative order. The only thing that changed, was that ASL became a special rule, rather than one just attached to weapons. Just something that’s irked me for some time because if they’d meant what the FAQ said, in any of the previous 3 editions (inclusive of this one), they should havve said ASF, ignoring any weapon rules for ASL (but more pleasantly written and not in that terminology necessarily).
Agreed. RAW and RAI are two very different things.
This is very true.
We have to play by the rules, and what they clearly state.
Well, not really. You can always choose to play them as whatever you like, as long as you and your opponent are in agreement.
Playing rules strictly as written no matter what leads to things like the Doomrocket not being classed as a shooting attack and being usable even when marching, and Giants being able to pick up and squash Wraiths because it 'isn't specified as an attack'. Its strictly accurate but you should be ready for a long, deep sigh from your opponents when you do it...
Anyway, I'm sure it'll make sense in the final draft. Or it'll get an faq... ;)
