[Archive] If the Good Dwarfs have the Anvil of Doom

Archive [Archive] Rules Development
21

Hashut’s Blessing:

As Thommy has said, try a power level of 4 or 5, then have them take a normal strength test. I still don’t understand the reasoning behind +1 attack because his staff can turn people into stone? Maybe make them at -1I or something or have to pass a Ld test to attack.

Remove the whole D4 lore choice thing and just let the player choose. It’s a bit of a complicated rule otherwise (well, not TOO complicated, but no point in adding in a die that doesn’t already exist). The wounds for the guards are WAY too high. Combine them into a single profile of 2 attacks and 2 wounds. Though I do like the minifluff for them. Do all of them get the 5+ ward?

But, it’s certainly starting to head in the right direction.

Though, I’ve just realised: why are all his books chained down and why is he immovable? (This is all fluffwise.) After all, if he’s the only one that can walk freely on his own, surely he’d flaunt it? Maybe make it a sacrificial alter as well as a library.

22

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Ok, maybe I’m just not wording this right.

In theory, this is what I’m trying to do with the Staff. Maybe I’m just not writing it well enough.

This is what I want it to be all about:

It’s a magical weapon that casts 1 spell which turns 1 enemy into stone…if it works. It’s not suppose to be an abillity, but a weapon loaded with this one spell with the possibility of working or failing in the turn. It also is possible to dispell the Staff’s power.

Your suggestion about cutting the 2D6 to 1D6 makes sense since most of the characters strength is no higher than 6 at the best. So rolling on a 6 max is more fair than trying to roll against a 12 Max, which you can only beat if both dice numbers are showing 3’s and your Strength is 6. Anything higher and, like you say, you’re sunk!

Also, perhaps if I make the Stone Spell much like “The Burning Head” spell from the Lore of Fire section from the 7th Ed Rule Book, it might make more sense.

Also, since Farlund is a level 4 Wiz, he gets 5 Casting Dice. That gives him a chance of scoring a 5 (Lowest possible roll) or a 30 (Highest Possible Roll)

Therefore, perhaps it should read something more like this:

Magical Items

The Staff of Stone:

Cast on 8+

Farlund Chaoswalker is the only known Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord who has sucessfully defeated the Stone Curse inherant to all Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers who dabble in the Black Arts. He has done this by harnessing the curse into a magical staff which he uses to tellecast it upon his enemies.

From a range of 18 inches, Farlund can aim his staff towards an enemy model and instill him with the Curse of Stone. The victum slowly turns to stone from his feet upwards.

To perform any action, the affected model must first roll under his strength charateristic on 1D6 at the start of every turn. If he suceeds, he can perform his turn as normal. If he fails, he is turned to stone until the spell can be dispelled, Farlund decides to release him by choosing another enemy or until Farlund is destroyed. Farlund can only cast this spell on one enemy model at a time. Represent this spell by placing a tolken marker beside the affected model. Farlund can choose to end this spell in his turn of the magic phase by removing the tolken from the table. He can then re-cast the spell on a model of his choice in his next magic phase.

Should Farlund enter hand to hand combat, the Staff of Stone gives Farlund a +1 Attack Characturistic.
Does that help the situation?

23

Hashut’s Blessing:

That works better. But, you’ve still not said why it gives him +1A as his combat bonus…

Also, he only generates 4 power dice and any multiples of 1 is a miscast.

24

Tarrakk Blackhand:

As Thommy has said, try a power level of 4 or 5, then have them take a normal strength test. I still don't understand the reasoning behind +1 attack because his staff can turn people into stone? Maybe make them at -1I or something or have to pass a Ld test to attack.

Remove the whole D4 lore choice thing and just let the player choose. It's a bit of a complicated rule otherwise (well, not TOO complicated, but no point in adding in a die that doesn't already exist). The wounds for the guards are WAY too high. Combine them into a single profile of 2 attacks and 2 wounds. Though I do like the minifluff for them. Do all of them get the 5+ ward?

But, it's certainly starting to head in the right direction.

Though, I've just realised: why are all his books chained down and why is he immovable? (This is all fluffwise.) After all, if he's the only one that can walk freely on his own, surely he'd flaunt it? Maybe make it a sacrificial alter as well as a library.

Hashut's Blessing
Ok, I attempted to change his magic "thingy" in the last post to Thommy H...so that's hopefully better! :D

As for the staff making an extra attack..maybe that could be dropped as well. Just thought it might be better if he gets charged or something. But maybe it isn't nessiccary.

The Black Orc guards get the 3 W because I figured that if Blacktounge is re-directing the missle attacks to them, then I don't want the whole "War Machine" getting massicured by turn 2. If he re-directs the wounds to the Black Orcs, then the whole thing can stick around for a few more turns. Remeber that Farlund can only fire his staff at a (Now) 18" range whereas a Dwarf Crossbow and Thunderer can fire much further. 30" and 24".

The concept behind the D4 lore choice is to make the spell lores random. That way the sorcerer is somewhat at the mercy of the dice. On the other hand, it also allows the player to explre the different lores that he may not have originally chosen. Maybe I could make it fit on a D6 with a -(Minus number) factor to the dice roll or something.

The +5 ward applies to the model as a unit, so anything in the unit gets the ward save.

Maybe I mistyped it, but it's only suppose to be the Black Orcs that are chained to the book platform. That's to keep them from running off, attacking the Sorcerer, or whatever.

Imagine the model like this : The sorcerer is suppose to be sitting on a chair, much like Thorgrim Grudgebearer and the Throne of Power. This chair is on a high pedistal that is supported by 4 legs, like a table. It has a staircase leading up from ground level on one side with the 2 Orcs chained to the front 2 legs, one on each post - away from the staircase. (So they can't attack Farlund as he walks up the stairs) On the top of the pedistol, there are 6 seporate stands with 6 seporate books on them. These books surround the chair in either a circle or semi-circle and are open to the paticular spell they represent. From Left to Right the page in the book is suppose to be opened to spell 1 for book 1, spell 2 for book 2, etc. So if you have the Lore of Shadow, book 1 is opened to the STEEDS OF SHADOW spell, book 2 is opened to the CREEPING DEATH spell, etc. Blacktounge is standing beside Farlund and holding the Orb as if to be handing it to his master. The books aren't chained because Farlund has to carry them up the stairs - a different set of books per game.

Much like the Anvil of Doom, the pedistol is mounted on a stone base. However, there is no extra "Furnace" model for Blacktounge.

Hope that helps with the visual.
25

Thommy H:

There’s already a mechanic for a magic item that casts a single spell - bound items. Check the rulebook to see how they work, because I think it’s pretty much what you’re going for.

26

Hashut’s Blessing:

I think it’s fine to give him a combat bonus, but I couldn’t see the reasoning behind +1A instead of reducing enemy initiative or something. Just something to do with it’s power or to do with the fact it’s a staff.

On the topic of the BOs, they have a 4+AS against shooting, a 5+WS and there’s a chance it won’t hit them. At 3 wounds each, that’s 6 total before ya can start on the other two 2 wound models. I’d suggest either a 4W profile counting as the pair of them or a 2W profile each, maximum (I think that’s how it is for the AoD as well anyway).

I think if you want to have a random generator, either use a table for a D6 (such as each lore, choose a lore and choose 2 lores and mix and match) or give him access to 6 lores or just 3. I like the 6 lores one least.

The visual, to me, implies that they all must remain stationary anyway. I think it remains a little pointless that he has the ability to walk, but not the option to use it and if you wished for him to be able to move, the point of the library thing with guards etc is redundant. Have him be a guy that is now dead and these are rules for when he was alive or something. That allows you to have him be the oldest and most powerful still.

27

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Also, he only generates 4 power dice....
p.107 of the Warhammer rule book states that "The maximum number of power dice a Wizard can use to cast a spell is one more than the Wizard's level, as shown in the chart." Remeber that this Wizard is Level 4.

Maybe the "Randomizer" for the Lores could be done like this for D6:
To choose his magic arsenal, start by rolling the D6. A roll of a 1-2 means that he has the six spells from the Fire Lore. A roll of 3 gives him the spells from the Metal Lore. A 4 on the dice gives him the Shadow Lore books and a 5-6 grants him the Death Lores of magic. Farlund can use all 6 of the spells common to that 1 Magical Lore.
What if I drop the A+1 and give the weapon "Fear" instead? Wouldn't you be afraid of a staff that could turn you to stone?
There's already a mechanic for a magic item that casts a single spell - bound items. Check the rulebook to see how they work, because I think it's pretty much what you're going for.

Thommy H
Ok, I'm reading it on P. 121 and it makes some sense, but I still don't understand it. Below is the non-understanding part.
Each bound spell item has a power level included in it's description. An opponient must score equil to or greater than this power level to dispell this spell , or he can use dispell scrolls as usual.

Warhammer rule book
After these two scentances, I can't find any example of a magical item's power level anywhere or even how to calculate this number. I've looked in the WoC book at their magical weapons as well as the rule book itself on p.122 and they just have a general run-down of what the item does.

For example : Staff of sorcery - Arcane; +1 to dispel - 35 Points.

So what page am I suppose to be looking at to try and figure this out?
28

JMS:

Well… No offense, but:

Better you stop it at once and stick to the stuff available to CDs via the actual valid list… Else we would end up with S4, T4, I5, A2, etc… just because the Chaos Warriors got that…

If you get what I mean

:cheers

29

Baggronor:

Regarding being turned to stone: are you in effect dead? So, a Vampire Count General who rolls a 6 has just lost the game due to a single dice roll? Hmmmm.

I don’t see the point of being the most ancient of CD sorcerers and not being subject to the Curse. The whole point of Special characters is to show the character of the race; thats why Astragoth is so cool in this regard, as it shows 1: the Sorcerer’s Curse and 2: the pragmatic and ingenious CD response to it.

The Anvil rules also get around the problem of shooting by having it require no LoS. This avoids the problem of it getting nuked on turn 1 (as the casket of souls is wont to do). Loading it up with extra saves and wounds isn’t much of a solution, I feel.

And do you remember when the anvil was bound spells that could be dispelled? It just wasn’t worth the points, mainly because it was too easy to shut down with a reasonable dispel dice pool. Had they made it harder to dispel, it would have been too powerful, hence the current version which just functions like a war machine and has very different abilities. I think this sorcerer character would have much the same problem. He might have 6 spells or whatever but an anvil Dwarf army (generally 7 dispel dice plus runes of spell breaking) will shut him down easily.

Concerning random spells: This would seriously put me off using him. Some of the design rumours for the next edition revolve around mages being allowed to choose their spells as standard, as many people are finding the random system too, well, random. Try giving him all 6 spells from either the Fire, Metal or Death lores (like VCs can). That way he has a good mixture of big and small spells too.

The staff should be better too, I think. If you have it as a spell, then I would say it should affect the whole unit and immobilise them/confer a movement penalty while it remains in play. That way it doesn’t victimize single models but still has good potential. If you have it as an ability and not a spell then I would say something like the old Cockatrice petrification rules, or maybe even have it petrify opponents he strikes in melee? That would make most powerful creatures think twice before engaging him, especially if he is quite tough. And its visually way cool :slight_smile:

I also think the guards should be Bull Centaurs (guardians of the Temple of Hashut), the most powerful CD sorcerer would surely not have mere slaves as his bodyguards.

I think he needs to do something other than just stand there and try to cast, or he is very 2 dimensional. At least the anvil is not dispellable, and will generally be deployed out of sight. You could always have him on a palanquin/mobile throne (mechanical or held aloft by Bull Centaurs/Blorcs/Immortals), so he can join units, maybe count as a battle standard too? If he were to be turning to stone, it would be a great excuse to make him extremely tough (like T6 and immune to Killing Blow) but have only 1 attack with his staff of petrification (plus the bodyguards, like Dwarf shieldbearers)? Its a bit like Thorgrim, but still… Depending on the final size, he could have a high Unit strength, giving him options to deploy alone and negate rank bonuses with flank charges etc. Does he cause fear? Are he and his loyal bodyguards stubborn? Can he always march due to his mechanical throne? Does it give him a 1+ armour save too? Does it have weird machinery on it that disrupts enemy spells and gives magic resistance? Loads of ways you could do it :slight_smile:

30

Thommy H:

After these two scentances, I can't find any example of a magical item's power level anywhere or even how to calculate this number. I've looked in the WoC book at their magical weapons as well as the rule book itself on p.122 and they just have a general run-down of what the item does.

For example : Staff of sorcery - Arcane; +1 to dispel - 35 Points.

So what page am I suppose to be looking at to try and figure this out?
Only bound items have a power level. Look at the Banner of Wrath for example.
31

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Why give up when we’re getting so close to actually making this guy work out propperly?

Better you stop it at once and stick to the stuff available to CDs via the actual valid list… Else we would end up with S4, T4, I5, A2, etc… just because the Chaos Warriors got that…

If you get what I mean
Sorry, I don’t get what you mean.

All along I’ve been sticking to the Ravening Hordes CD list. In fact, I have it right here, beside me, as I figure out this new model.

If you’ve been following this, then you can see that Farlund’s a Level 4 Sorcerer Lord from the CD list, legitimatly upgraded to the level 3 starting place at a cost of +35 P. Blacktounge is a Level 1 Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer and also follows the CD list. Both of them have 1 “Hand Weapon” - if you want to count the Orb as a weapon - just like the RH CD list.

However, Farlund’s staff is a Magical Weapon, to give him that little “Extra”, and that weapon needs to be figured out.

Blacktoung’s Orb is just a renamed and tonned down “Gauntlets of Bazhrakk the Cruel” magic item from the CD list.

The only “severly” modified figures are the Black Orc Book Guards because they are chained to the spell book platform and therefore need to be modified, but only slightly, from their original stats as found in the Orc and Goblin book - which the CD list says to reffer to if you use Black Orcs in your CD army list. They also have their “Armed to da Teeff” rule eliminated because I think it would be a bit stupid to have them loaded with weapons if their chained to a platform like two ravenous dogs.

The “Stone Curse” spell is from the 1995 Warhammer Presents : Chaos Dwarfs book published by Games Workshop. I’m just trying to legitimatly bring it into 7th by turning it into The Staff of Stone, and it’s a slight stumbling block, but I’m sure that in a few more posts that Thommy H, Hashut’s Blessing and myself can figure out.

Besides, a lot of people are liking this concept and I think it would suck to just “follow the crowd” like you’re suggesting and make this guy a regular sorcerer stuck to 1 magic lore riding a Lammasu which I’d have to try and Greenstuff up or find an original model for.

Think outside the box man!

32

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Only bound items have a power level. Look at the Banner of Wrath for example.

Thommy H
ThanX Thommy...but I still don't quite understand. How does the Power Level part work? I'm missing that 1 key bit of info, mainly, what is the power level?

Ok, I get it for the wizard - he gets an extra casting die for his wizard level.

There MUST be something in the rule book that I am missing that says "The weapon's power level means....".

I'm a good Dwarf player. Casting magic spells is new to me.
33

Thommy H:

You’re mixing up two different kinds of rules here. The power level of a bound spell is the equivalent of the number a wizard rolls to cast an ordinary spell. In other words, it’s the number you have to beat to dispel it.

For example: A wizard rolls a 7 on two dice to cast Fireball. Therefore, you need 7+ to dispel it.

A magic ring of some kind has a fireball spell with power level 5. It casts automatically, and your opponent will need 5+ to dispel it.

All this is explained in the rules for bound spells in the magic items section of the rulebook.

34

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Regarding being turned to stone: are you in effect dead? So, a Vampire Count General who rolls a 6 has just lost the game due to a single dice roll? Hmmmm.

Baggnoror
If he fails, he is turned to stone until the spell can be dispelled, Farlund decides to release him by choosing another enemy or until Farlund is destroyed.

myself

Stone = temporary imobilization until 1 of the 3 conditions reguarding Farlund is met.
I don't see the point of being the most ancient of CD sorcerers and not being subject to the Curse.

Baggnoror
He is subject to the curse. He just slowed it down and stuck it in the staff to use against his enemies. One day he'll fall to it fully and be stuck outside, lining the road to Zaarh-nagrund.

However, he needs a legitimate reason as to why he has 6 spells avalible from all 4 lores of CD magic while the other wizards are only allowed 4 spells from 1 lore of magic. It makes sense, to me at least, that if he's really old, then he has a collection of books from all the lores instead of just one as well as he's studied in each of the 4 lores. To "randomize" which 1 lore of magic he's going to use at the begining of the game just makes it more interesting, to me at least.

Therefore, in theory, this special Sorcerer can be a different lore each game, but once the game starts, he's set as that Lore Wizard. After he's set as the Lore Wizard, he's allowed all 6 spells of that lore.

Otherwise, I could do 1 of 2 things.

1. Allow the player to pick their own lore, which would mean that each and every game, someone could chose to have him as only a Fire Lord and then their opponent crys "Unfair".

2. I could personally chose 6 spells from each of the 4 lores, set them on this piece in it's rules and then reply to post after post about how my choices suck and could I please use some other spell.

So instead of going through this headache, I thought it would be better to randomize the choice by dice roll and give a chance for the players to use the other Lore spells, which are all pretty awesome anyway.

Sorry that I wasn't playing "Back in the day" and got to personally know Astrogoth and all the Kool stuff he could do. But try and remeber that Astrogoth was special to the 1995 CD's and that Farlund, the guy I'm creating is new for 7th. He's designed to be the mirror image of the current version of the Anvil of Doom, yet be unique enough to not be the carbon copy of it.

I don't have all the answers as I'm not a GW designer who has nothing to do all day but think up this stuff and then work with a propper "Think Tank" to have them perfected before he prints something. I think I'm slowly getting there with the help of all of you in making him unique, but there's a lot to iron out as there isn't 1 guy, but 4 to consider.

Maybe it isn't fair to the memory of Astrogoth to say this guy is the most powerfull or the oldest, but I'm at least trying to take a shot at character creation, which is new to me. Sorry that my "Fluff" is hurting everyone's feelings. Maybe I should say that Farlund is a total schlep that swiped a load of books and is wanted by the CD's.

Anyway, as for the Black Orcs, they are currently avalible as models while the Bull Centaurs - although more correct to the Temple of Hashut Guard idea- are OOP and I'd have to again hunt down the pieces or GS them.
35

Tarrakk Blackhand:

A magic ring of some kind has a fireball spell with power level 5. It casts automatically, and your opponent will need 5+ to dispel it.

Thommy H
ThanX! I get it now! So you're thinking that the Stone Staff should dispell on a 4? What determines that, or is it basically up to me to decide upon a Power Level number?

By the way, I think the Staff, by defininition, is an Arcane item. Maybe that doesn't matter though.
36

Thommy H:

1. Allow the player to pick their own lore, which would mean that each and every game, someone could chose to have him as only a Fire Lord and then their opponent crys "Unfair".
But this is how wizards normally work...
is it basically up to me to decide upon a Power Level number?
Yes. Obviously if it's higher, it'll be worth more. Most bound spells are between power level 3 and 5 though.
By the way, I think the Staff, by defininition, is an Arcane item. Maybe that doesn't matter though.
No, it doesn't. The reason the +1 Attack thing is causing confusion is because that would make it a magic weapon though, which wizards usually don't have access to.
37

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Ok, I see. so then I SHOULD drop the Lore randomizer.

38

Hashut’s Blessing:

No, he generates four, but he may use up to 5 to cast a spell (using one of the power dice pool dice).

The randomiser could be like that, but as Thommy H said, does that make ordinary wizards that choose to have 4 random spells from fire unfair? It’s the way it’s played and he wouldn;t be the first special (or even non-special) character that can have all 6 spells and choose the lore.

Why would they know it’d turn them to stone unless they saw it happen? Why would you be more scared of being turned to stone than a giant rat-man thing with a sword trying to stab you? if you REALLY want it to augment his combat prowess (which seems to be purely to make him stronger), then make it relevant to being a staff or possibly slowing them somehow.

Bound spells are cast unless dispelled and the power level is what counts as its casting value for the purposes of dispelling.

I don’t recall you having previously said that the Orb provides +1S and wounds a friendly model on a roll of 1 to hit.

Also, please don’t double-post, just edit.

39

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Also, please don't double-post, just edit.
So just change the rules in the first post is what you mean?

or you mean don't post twice in a row?
40

Hashut’s Blessing:

Posting twice in a row.