KramDratta:
The Doomwheel’s Grind attacks does D6 automatic hits at Str 6 (Doomwheel’s Strength) representing the giant wheel spinning in place and crushing its foes.
It feels the proper way that the Iron Daemon should attack. A puny goblin on a wolf or an eagle should not be able to pin it in place.
Thommy H:
That’s Thunderstomp. Or does it happen at normal Initiative?
KramDratta:
It happens at the beginning of the combat.
Also, it is different from Thunderstomp as it can be used on Ogres & cavalry as well.
Thommy H:
Ah yes, good point.
Hey, how about this instead of Thunderstomp though:
“To represent it grinding over its foes, in every round of combat after the first, the Iron Daemon inflicts D6 Strength 7 hits for each full rank on one enemy unit in base contact. These hits have the Always Strikes Last special rule and are distributed like hits from shooting.”
khedyarl:
If you have a copy of the Skaven {Doomwheel} or Empire {Steamtank} rulebooks, Thommy, there’s already a precendent set for the rule itself. Which is why the Daemon having thunderstomp is confusing in the first place. They wouldn’t even need to write a new rule - just use the already existing.
Thommy H:
I don’t have either of those books, but both are pre-8th Edition (and so pre-Stomp) so I’ll be interested to see how they’re handled now. I’ve pre-ordered the new Empire book, so I’ll see what they did with the Steam Tank at least.
KramDratta:
Re new Steamtank, I believe it makes D6 (+D3 for every steam point) S6 impact hits in its turn. It does not fight in its opponent turn (not 100% on this)
cornixt:
Here’s my rambling thoughts on this now. No structure at all:
I’m guessing that the no-wheeling rule was put in to stop you from doing all kinds of crazy wheeling and pivoting that is normally allowed for a single model even when marching. Combined with the shooting, it makes it a bit too good.
It seems that the biggest issue that people are having is that it is hard to charge, and since most of its effectiveness is based on charging (like a chariot), it makes it an expensive gamble.
The shooting is going to give you an average of 7 S6 hits each turn, which might be good for a war machine but not for one that costs so many points and can’t be used half of the time due to combat (either getting into it or trying to) dictating the direction it can shoot.
The rules aren’t as complicated as people seem to be making out, it’s just a chariot that has different charging and marching rules. A key change to making it operate better would be to remove the no-wheeling restriction, or at least reduce the wheeling to being only once and before the remainder of the movement. The other key change would be in allowing it to at least make a few attacks against units that aren’t infantry. A D3 Thunderstomp might be a way of representing it being less good against larger creatures, or just remove the unit-type restriction on the Thunderstmop rule, but wholesale replacing the Thunderstomp rule with an equivalent would be cleaner.
Considering all that here’s a rough draft replacement for the movement and combat rules:
An Iron Daemon counts as a Chariot in all respects. An Iron Daemon may not perform a normal march move, instead it may move an additional 2D6" if it doesn’t not wheel. Charging is performed as normal. On combat turns when the Iron Daemon hasn’t charged, it inflicts D6 hits against each enemy unit in base contact. These hits have the Always Strikes Last rule.
Thommy H:
Chariots are already unable to march, so you don’t need that bit and I think wholesale Random Movement works better because it already incorporates a charge mechanic. Perhaps it should always have to move straight ahead, but can’t fire if it uses the Random Movement - so you eliminate the thing about it pivoting around and still being able to shoot.
I mean, that’s pretty much how it works already, but the issue is that it doesn’t use the existing special rules, instead it has a bunch of its own for no real reason. But, then, the same is true of the other war machines in Tamurkhan - their rules laboriously explain how they shoot, when they could just say “counts as a stone thrower, except…”
KramDratta:
I prefer Thommy’s way:
Normal move of 6" & shoot or pivot on the spot & 6" + Random Movement (2D6) with no shooting…
cornixt:
While looking up the rules for this, I discovered that the Thunderstomp doesn’t actually work against buildings, which is odd since the Skullcracker is meant to be used to smash down walls. Which suggests that there was some oversight with regard to the attacks, unless they really meant that it would only be effective for the initial impact and completely useless thereafter. Not that there are any formal rules for walls having toughness and wound values anymore, I guess they are left for the fabled siege supplement that is always rumoured. Gah! Where did all this fun stuff go to?
Here’s an improved draft replacement for the movement and combat rules:
An Iron Daemon counts as a Chariot in all respects. An Iron Daemon may add 2D6" to its movement if it doesn’t wheel or pivot at any point during the movement phase and hasn’t declared a charge that turn. Charging is performed as normal.
Infernal Thunderstomp - An Infernal Thunderstomp follows the same rules as the Thunderstomp rule in the main rulebook, except that it works against all types of units, including buildings. A Skullcracker uses 2D6 for its Infernal Thunderstomp roll.
Notes: Since the unit is effectively a chariot with a war machine, it shouldn’t become too fast and manoeverable. I didn’t want to lose some of the rules that are flavoured by the fluff, so restricting the extra 2D6" of movement to being straight ahead keeps the idea of it being hard to steer (not that there is any steering on the model) while still allowing for it to get some charges and justify the cost. This also prevents weird situations that would allow such a hulking model to zoom across the battlefield and do what looks like a handbreak turn (or drifting). Allowing it to still shoot shouldn’t be a big deal since you are still so limited in what you can hit. So why is it able to turn while charging? Well, on a charge you are limited in your movements anyway, and adding further restrictions would either complicate things and/or leave you with the situation that the current rules do.
Infernal Thunderstomp means that it can have the fighting power of a monster (pretty appropriate for the points) and stop it being incapacited by combat with a tiny unit of fast cavalry. While this appears to take away a little from how chariot-like it is, there are no creatures pulling it, and the biggest argument “Have you seen how many points it costs?! Far more than a hero in a chariot”. Plus the Skullcracker doesn’t have to worry about being blocked by some immune cavalry. I also figured that it would be easier to use an adjusted version of an existing rule than writing the same one out again, so if questions come up about the existing rule then they can be answered all in one place.
KramDratta:
While looking up the rules for this, I discovered that the Thunderstomp doesn't actually work against buildings, which is odd since the Skullcracker is meant to be used to smash down walls.Where did you read that?
cornixt
Thommy H:
Which suggests that there was some oversightIn Forge World's rules?! Madness!
cornixt:
I meant the buildings themselves, not the unit inside.
KramDratta:
@Thommy: Apparently the new rules for the Steam tank grant it the Random Movement & allow it to use up to 3 Steam Points to move/charge. Each Steam Point moves the Steam Tank D6", so the minimum is 3" & the max is 18".
I guess having the Iron Daemon with Random Movement 6 + 2D6" inches shows them manlings that we do things better 
Grimbold Blackhammer:
With the new Empire book out, it is worth noting that chariots, and I assume that refers to anything that has a “chariot” profile, do NOT get impact hits if they are counter-charged. That does include Steam Tanks (now T6 snicker) but does not include an Iron Daemon.
Grimbold Blackhammer