nilbog:
On my first point, I’ve got it completely wrong. You do get impact hits, however far you’ve moved, if you contact an enemy.
The rules do say ‘if a charge is being attempted, this must be declared’, so no rolling the dice and hoping you ‘accidently’ contact a unit, as that would be cheating; you are attempting a charge, just not telling anybody about it.
I’m not sure if the iron daemon’s rules about accidently contacting a unit (if it only moves its normal movement) override the rules in the brb about staying 1" apart; I’m assuming they do, as army book trumps rule book. However, given the point above, and the fact that you can measure (and so can your oppoent) at any time, it’s a bit of a stretch to say you’re just moving it forward a bit and not charging when it’s clearly within 6".
I’m never fielding one ever again, it’s just too complicated. I’m still explaining the -1 to wound on the k’daai, I can’t face going through these rules as well.
KramDratta:
As I’ve said before, such a waste of potential…
Ender SpiteSworn:
I never said you didn't get Impact Hits for not declaring a charge -
Thommy H
Uhm, well thats not what your quote said :) , But yeah, I'm OK with the ASF, Mainly it takes some risk out of a long charge, as you can still fire your cannonade if you dont roll well. Interesting point later on about your opponent not getting a charge reaction...if you accidently move into them.
On my first point, I've got it completely wrong. You do get impact hits, however far you've moved, if you contact an enemy.
The rules do say 'if a charge is being attempted, this must be declared', so no rolling the dice and hoping you 'accidently' contact a unit, as that would be cheating; you are attempting a charge, just not telling anybody about it.
nilbog
I'm not considering this for short charges, Its more of a bi product on a long charge "Might as well move forward, and if I hit something oh well". Things normally arn't as black and white as I want to charge this. Its more like I could shoot and move up a bit, but if I charge then fine. But there is also, they are pretty close, but I don't want to not get a chance to shoot, Ill just fire up the boiler. At what point does not declaring a charge become cheating? I think if you were doing it specifically to prevent a charge reaction (you know they were going to flee or stand and shoot) then thats pretty gamey. I would not normally do this, depends on how gamey the opponent is, lol
I'm never fielding one ever again, it's just too complicated. I'm still explaining the -1 to wound on the k'daai, I can't face going through these rules as well.
nilbog
Well its a new book, and people always get freaked out by non-standard things. Its not nearly as bad as when the last WE book came out, Now that was a lot of special rules, And is really slighly less complicated then Skaven. People just don't see them a lot.
I'm fielding the iron demon mainly because its a cool model and I have a nice display planned for the "train". I'm bummed about the FAQ clarifications and overall handcuffs that make the skull crasher a really bad choice, as I had some conversions planned for that but oh well. I'm using my iron demon in tandom with some K'daii fireborn, essential with the basic anvil and hammer tactics. The K'daii pin something in place and hold it there long enough for the iron demon to roll over it, great combo for trashing hordes, but it has some serrious limitations (as has been repeatidly pointout). Still think its a fun unit to play, just not the most competitive choice..
I have heard of people doing very well with 3 of these. Basically a wall of moving death. But thats a huge comitment to a relativly unballaced list (not to mention the $$ cost of fielding those ! lol.
Da Crusha:
the Iron deamon is still really good for its steam cannonade. it can really wipe out monsters with a single shot. it is also a hell of a tar pit. so although its movement sucks and makes it awkward, it still has its uses.
Thommy H:
Uhm, well thats not what your quote said
You're right: my quote didn't say a thing I never said. I only talked about not getting Impact Hits when you use the normal movement, which is correct. My mistake was in thinking the accidental charge (when the enemy gets ASF) wasn't the same thing as using the special movement. So it does get Impact Hits when it contacts a unit by accident,
but they get ASF. If you use normal movement, I don't think you can move into base contact with an enemy unit, but I don't have the rules in front of me to check. For all I know it may say you can. But, for all I know, there could be a line in there about magic unicorns spontaneously appearing. Wouldn't surprise me.
Ender SpiteSworn:
lol, no unicorn references, and nothing about moving onto enemy units. Which would make it more usefull, and appropriate for “Lumbering an Unstopable!”, you only get the impact hits when engaging the boiler and thus going in a straight line.
I’ll be using a hell bound one for the next few tournaments. Hopefully I’ll get to unload a cannonade on an ethereal Slann or Hell wraith unit. that would make me smile.
Marduk:
In conclusion the rules suck. But the mini is one of my favorites, so I will use it anyway.
Thommy H:
Use it as a Hellcannon: it has three crew, a shooting attack, it’s a monster so it Thunder Stomps and its Rampage rule is perfect for representing the extra boiler movement thing that the Iron Daemon has.
Hashutcopper:
I could not be bothered going through that to explain how the bloody thing works
Marduk:
To use it as a Hellcannon!!
Good idea Thommy H. Thank you.
Far2Casual:
Shouldn’t we try to contact Forge World and express the concerns of the whole community about how hard it is to use that thing at the moment ?
They have already helped us by publishing a FAQ, maybe could they take some time to expand the movement rules of that awesome model ?
Smog:
Oh boy, I’m glad I read this thread before I bought the model. I’ve been listening to the Garagehammer podcast and one of the hosts there fields one. Then again, they do not come across as super-competative players and for all I know he could’ve gotten its rules wrong like so many others here.
Those shots sounds promising, but not for that points cost.
khedyarl:
I am still a huge fan of the mini, due to the cannon. That gun absolutely annihilates opposing monsters/monstrous infantry/monstrous calvalry. It’s able to move six inches and pivot on a dime {which is ludicrous, given that if it moves an additional 2d6 it can’t even wheel, but c’est la vi}, which gives it quite a bit of weird mobility when hunting down opposing monsters and a 24 inch threat.
The rules are certainly silly, and awkward, but I’ve found the Daemon useful in every game I’ve played in which the opponent has taken big stuff. A little worthless against Empire/Dwarfs I’ve found, though, unfortunately. The change that it desperately needs is to the thunderstomp. Replace it with grind, and our huge point cost train won’t be held up for three turns by five fast calv.
Thommy H:
"The Iron Daemon counts as a chariot for movement purposes, however it may not charge. The Chaos Dwarf crew can chose to stoke the boiler at the start of the turn, in which case it instead gains the Random Movement (2D6) special rule. In combat, an Iron Daemon counts as a Monster, and hence has the Thunderstomp special rule."
There. Done.
cornixt:
"The Iron Daemon counts as a chariot for movement purposes, however it may not charge. The Chaos Dwarf crew can chose to stoke the boiler at the start of the turn, in which case it instead gains the Random Movement (2D6) special rule. In combat,
an Iron Daemon
counts as a Monster, and hence has the Thunderstomp special rule."
There. Done.
Thommy HRemove the bit I've marked in red, no point to it and it is potentially more confusing. Not sure why no one has suggested the movement rule change before, it is so obvious.
khedyarl:
The random movement would be 2d6+6 in that case, Thommy. I believe when the boiler is activated, the intent is that it always moves faster than it’s standard.
The Thunderstomp rule still doesn’t remove it’s problem with cavalry, but just changing the ruleset to a monster that moves like a chariot is an elegant enough fix that I can ignore that flaw. Perhaps an email or facebook campaign could convince Forgeworld of the necessity for change? Nothing derogatory, just well-thought out discussions on why the change can only tighten up their rules, helping them in the long run.
Thommy H:
Yeah, sorry, it should be 2D6+6, as you say. The only reason I said it counts as a Monster is to avoid the possibility of killing the crew but, thinking about it, that’s how chariots work anyway. There’s actually no real reason it has to be Unique.
So it would be a chariot with no steeds that, if it wants to charge, has to use Random Movement. The stuff about it running through obstacles could still be kept, of course.
KramDratta:
Ideally, the Thunderstomp is replaced by Grind attacks (as the Doom Wheel) D6 for the Iron Daemon & 2D6 for the Skull Cracker.
I believe that this rule combined with the movement wule above will make it a lot more popular.
Thommy H:
I’m not familiar with Grind attacks - how do they work?