Method:
I can help but say the obvious but really is it more the case that games workshop are pricing themselves out of there own market ? I as a producer of items myself that I have sculpted I see things like this as a huge problem in the future. But can't help but think gw are doing themselves no favor's.
Thorne
I agree.
But to be honest, I don't know what the upper limit is. After all they use less materials selling less product for more money. so from a manufacturing standpoint it's a win win.
I liked to believe that they are probably close to te sweet spot, when it's not expensive enough for players to walk, but is priced well enough that they are making a killing.
khedyarl:
Did anyone buy stock? I sold mine, and don’t get the quarterlies anymore. I think you can find them online, but I can’t for the life of me remember where I found it last time. I wonder how their sales are doing since Finecast was released.
brotsorrow:
Northern BC, Brotsorrow. Prince George.
I'm anxiously awaiting the following in one gigantic box:
Drazoath
Unridden Bale Taurus
20 more Fireglaives (which brings me to 40)
Another Dreadquake
Deathshrieker
Daemonsmith character pack
6 Kdaii
Monstrous Arcana book.
I'm pumped!
khedyarl
so jealous. I live near london, and go to school at McMaster in Hamilton.
As for Silentbob... don't scare him, the book will PROBABLY be at the bottom ;)
snowblizz:
They work freelance actually, but in principle I agree.
snowblizz
Oh, I was pretty sure that at least the older guys was employed. Anyway my bad, I must have mix them up with GW.
warh
You're probably not entirely incorrect.
Some of them may still be, but that's most certainly a minority. There's just so many of them, it probably also makes sense from a cost allocation structure.
Did anyone buy stock? I sold mine, and don't get the quarterlies anymore. I think you can find them online, but I can't for the life of me remember where I found it last time. I wonder how their sales are doing since Finecast was released.
khedyarl
You can find the information here.
http://investor.games-workshop.com/
Ulgurstasta:
i could not disagree more.
(...) i can't help but wait to hear complaints like "the new edition is out but my army book has not been updated in 8 years!" OR "these models are 15 years old and suck! every other army got new models!" OR "FW released chaos dwarfs but now they haven't been updated in 10 years!"
thrawn
Doesn't sound to different from what we have now :)
Cobra7:
I bought the majority of my CD army from a website in China for a lot less. I have some of it as real FW, which will be my front ranks, but everything else is a knockoff. The quality is about 95% of what I would expect from FW, and once painted I doubt anyone will be able to tell they are not official.
Call me what you like, but if I can’t afford something that I want, and someone else can provide something similar, I’m going with the other person.
Proof
Veshnakar:
Still though, this is very VERY wrong. Reason being, it reminds me a lot of the local game store scenario.
So say it’s much cheaper for you to buy miniatures online at 25% off normal retail, and your local game store (where you play all the time) carries the same miniatures but at only 5% off. So if you only buy online, your store is going to have a much harder time staying open and is going to have to cut corners to make ends meet, and eventually you will have all the miniatures you want, but now you have nowhere to play with them. If you play at the store, you should buy at the store.
Long analogy I know, but the point I am trying to make is that when you give all of your money to another company other than forgeworld, it hurts ALL of us, because forgeworld judges the interest in Chaos Dwarfs based on the sales that THEY get, and the more money they make off of us buying Chaos Dwarfs, the more they will support them! This also includes potential new miniatures as well as any new books and/or updates we get in the future!!
This also influences Gamesworkshop as well as because this is how they judge the interest in Chaos Dwarfs and it goes hand in hand with future support of Chaos Dwarfs as a whole from GW.
I know times can be hard, but Chaos Dwarfs have had a hard enough time gaining traction as is, and this is absolutely abysmal in my eyes. We need to show them that there are people out there that REALLY want gamesworkshop’s full support of Chaos Dwarfs.
The Legion of Azgorh army from forgeworld is the best thing that has happened for us in a LONG LONG time and they need our support. If we lose the support of gamesworkshop, then we lose our army, and if we lose our army (beyond looking pretty on a shelf) the knockoffs won’t do you much good will they? Especially when there are no rules to play them with.
Cobra7:
Still though, this is very VERY wrong. Reason being, it reminds me a lot of the local game store scenario.
So say it's much cheaper for you to buy miniatures online at 25% off normal retail, and your local game store (where you play all the time) carries the same miniatures but at only 5% off. So if you only buy online, your store is going to have a much harder time staying open and is going to have to cut corners to make ends meet, and eventually you will have all the miniatures you want, but now you have nowhere to play with them. If you play at the store, you should buy at the store.
Long analogy I know, but the point I am trying to make is that when you give all of your money to another company other than forgeworld, it hurts ALL of us, because forgeworld judges the interest in Chaos Dwarfs based on the sales that THEY get, and the more money they make off of us buying Chaos Dwarfs, the more they will support them! This also includes potential new miniatures as well as any new books and/or updates we get in the future!!
This also influences Gamesworkshop as well as because this is how they judge the interest in Chaos Dwarfs and it goes hand in hand with future support of Chaos Dwarfs as a whole from GW.
I know times can be hard, but Chaos Dwarfs have had a hard enough time gaining traction as is, and this is absolutely abysmal in my eyes. We need to show them that there are people out there that REALLY want gamesworkshop's full support of Chaos Dwarfs.
The Legion of Azgorh army from forgeworld is the best thing that has happened for us in a LONG LONG time and they need our support. If we lose the support of gamesworkshop, then we lose our army, and if we lose our army (beyond looking pretty on a shelf) the knockoffs won't do you much good will they? Especially when there are no rules to play them with.
Veshnakar
You sir have a very good and thought out argument.
I have not thought about it from that point of view. I am not a "veteran" CD player like many on here, and while I do not feel the same, I do respect what you guys have gone through.
I personally disagree with the idea that GW might bring CD's back as a main army. They have too much on their plate, but I wouldn't rule it out completely around the time of 9th or even 10th edition. Still, I'm not one to say what GW will and will not do. I will honestly buy more FW if I decide to expand the army and if financially possible.
maded12:
Lets take this line of thought in a different direction…
FW raises the price of their products to maximize their profit (this is what a company can and should do) They do this again and again and again. Then all of a sudden sales start to drop and ‘knock offs’ start appearing. At this point they should be able to tell that they have reached the limit of how high they can raise their prices.
If they don’t mind losing a few % to knock of company’s then nothing will change. But if those few % start increasing they will be forced to either lower their prices or stop producing the copied products.
They can stop 1 perhaps even two production lines. But if the % of copied products keeps increasing like it has these last few years they will be forced to lower their prices.
The only reason these 2grade companies are viable is because of the ridiculous prices FW and GW are asking at the moment.
Everybody can order anything from anywhere in the world. If I can save 50%-75%on my products I will buy them elsewhere and I won’t feel sorry about it at all.
If the manufacturer is to stupid/hard headed/ignorant/set in stone/blind to what is happening an the market they deserve to go out of business.
I LOVE GW miniatures and I don’t mind them making a profit but they should be (and probably are) aware that their ridicules prices are not viable in the long run.
Baggronor:
Truthfully though, is it that expensive a hobby?
One of my friends is a motorbike enthusiast. I am pretty sure his hobby is more expensive than mine.
My dad is keen on antiques. He spends more on oddities and furniture than I do on miniatures.
One of my best mates is a chain smoker and a heavy drinker. I am 100% sure he spends more on his ‘hobbies’ than I spend on mine.
I can’t speak for the international buyers, but I think it’s a little bit silly when people in the UK moan about pricing imo. A £20 boxed set here or there is really nothing; that’s not even a round of drinks near where I work.
Thommy H:
Baggronor is right - the bars round there really are extortionate.
Valrim:
I also agree with Baggronor.
Keep in mind that this game is very easy to play with empty bases while you save up to fill out your army. I have done it tons of times in the past to test out new codices.
Another reason I would recommend not buying from knock-off companies is that they usually steal the molds from companies that have invested good sums of money into the creation and technology they use in their molding processes.
This discussion seems to have two arguments.
1) The models are too expensive for me. So the companies are forcing me to buy from cheaper sellers.
2) Supporting your hobby is the only way to keep it alive. So build your army slower, but pay the asking price by the company that keeps it alive.
Both arguments are valid. But keep in mind that just a few months ago nearly 80% of a Chaos Dwarf army was DIY. The Chaos Dwarf community at large, but most likely here, managed to convince GW and FW that it was time to revisit Chaos Dwarfs. They responded by not only creating a usable codex for us, but they also created a nearly complete miniature line. Very few armies that are not related to Space Marines or Orcs have enjoyed this kind of blessing in the past. And, as many people and myself have already stated. If you want to see more Chaos Dwarfs in the future… support the people that are making it happen. Make sure they see that their investment into the Chaos Dwarfs was a good decision.
Blah… now I’ve gone and ranted too… but still… I am completely amazed that this thread is one of the larger threads of recent date. I would think we would all me boasting more about our new codex and the models that were made for us and their uses than looking for an alternate/cheaper method of filling out the army.
zobo1942:
I don’t think that there is any use in denying that the ‘start up costs’ for playing Warhammer are high. In order to put together an army it costs hundreds of dollars. Throw in a rulebook, an army book, paint, brushes, etc… and yeah �?" it’s pricey. It’s not on par with activities like golfing, skiing, or scuba diving, but it is expensive.
However, I tend to look at things in terms of ‘cost per hour of entertainment’. I’m pretty sure that if you work out the cost of playing Warhammer based on the number of hours of entertainment it provides you with, you might be surprised at how low the ‘cost per hour of entertainment’ becomes. As soon as your army is ready to use and you have some opponents to play, you really don’t need to invest any more money into it unless you want to. And the number of hours of planning, prepping, and painting a Warhammer army is significant.
I can understand people wanting to reduce that initial cost �?" especially in a game where the number of models required to play seems to keep growing �?" but when you think that you can re-sell the miniatures you want to retire or replace, and the number of hours of entertainment you can get from them, it becomes a lot less expensive. I’ll bet that, over time, the cost of playing Warhammer becomes cheaper than a lot of other activities.
But the large initial ‘buy-in’ is what I think makes some people look for a cheaper route.
Thommy H:
Also, without wanting to be too patronising, a lot of people getting into Warhammer for the first time are kids. When I was a student, I spent hours agonising over each hobby purchase and scouring eBay for deals. Now, a couple of £20-30 units a month really isn’t that big a deal. Not compared to things like food, rent, bills, etc. and not, as you say, Zobo, when you compare it to the pleasure it actually provides.
zobo1942:
I just realized that inexpensive knock-offs will also reduce the re-sale value of legitimate models, should a gamer decide to sell his/her models and start using a different army, as I doubt that people with recasts would list them as such. So, these knock-offs make the cost of Warhammer more expensive for everyone �?" moreso for the vast majority who buy legitimate models.
That sucks. I don�?Tt think it is fair to transfer that financial burden onto other gamers.
Vardan Painkiller:
As always answer is yes and no at the same time.
Lets differenciate between legal/not legal, vs right/wrong.
Since it is legal to copy in china, it is legal to make such casts. Also if there were 3rd party involved in reselling where it it no legal to sell such copies, then that party would break a law. But they is no law against buying non “kosher” copies, so thats the end os story.
Right/wrong
Hard question, i belive that according to principles of free market its right for people to buy cheaper copies if they expect lower quality. The only argument against it is that this break laws, but i discussed law above.
As to the impact, well stronger competition means more favourable conditions for buyers.
As to effects, well GW will NEVER lower prices, it would mean they areweak and that aint gonna happen.
Realisticaly thou, GW is very poorly managed company, as i analyse their actions it seems they apply 1950’ business doctrines, they blatantly ignore players oppinion, they are extremely slow to learn and fail to see potential in fan base, so if they get screwed on CD by some chinaese, its their fault, should have addopted community business model 10 years ago.
kind regards
PS. i would totaly try out fakes , to check quality, then buy whole bundle, (if i had money) then demand money back for copies, ebay provides that, and fakes seller is not protected by law here 
Thommy H:
Realisticaly thou, GW is very poorly managed company, as i analyse their actions it seems they apply 1950' business doctrines, they blatantly ignore players oppinion, they are extremely slow to learn and fail to see potential in fan base, so if they get screwed on CD by some chinaese, its their fault, should have addopted community business model 10 years ago.
I suspect that you and I have different definitions of "realistically".
aka_mythos:
I’ve seen some Space Marine dreadnoughts that were chinese recasts… its disppointing that the recasters can end up with fewer mold lines than the typical FW model. I also think its funny how the Chinese ones can forgo the giant blocks of resin as a sprue on these bootleg CD.
Vardan Painkiller:
Thommy H: Yes, i saw several striving companies that managed to realise what “relation based marketing” is. In Poland there is vast group of old school players that simply left the hobby because they seem what GW serves as a downgrade. In addition, what was proven on many other forums, finecast is cheaper to both mantain and introduce, yet it was an excuse to increase prices. Another proof of hobby downgrade is white dwarf magazine, 10 years ago it often contained new rules scenarios etc. Now its just a flyer disguised as magazine.
There are wargame companies that involve their customers, an example “By fire and sword” 17th century 15mm system offers winners of annual competition faces to be cast as faces of command models.
A lot of other companies actually try to make balanced games, so they are tournament viable, GW seems to make a point about having UNbalancedrules.
But sorry for offtopic, maby we should make a poll asking who will buy chinaese dwarfs?
Method:
Thommy H: Yes, i saw several striving companies that managed to realise what "relation based marketing" is. In Poland there is vast group of old school players that simply left the hobby because they seem what GW serves as a downgrade. In addition, what was proven on many other forums, finecast is cheaper to both mantain and introduce, yet it was an excuse to increase prices. Another proof of hobby downgrade is white dwarf magazine, 10 years ago it often contained new rules scenarios etc. Now its just a flyer disguised as magazine.
There are wargame companies that involve their customers, an example "By fire and sword" 17th century 15mm system offers winners of annual competition faces to be cast as faces of command models.
A lot of other companies actually try to make balanced games, so they are tournament viable, GW seems to make a point about having UNbalancedrules.
But sorry for offtopic, maby we should make a poll asking who will buy chinaese dwarfs?
Vardan Painkiller
i'd buy them. money isnt an issue with me, but that frees up more of my money to go on vacations, spend on my kid and put in the bank.
the really isnt a good reason not to. Most people arent so idealistic when it comes to downloading music/movies etc. That said; being truthful and about getting it cheap can make you somewhat of a pariah on GW fan forum. The old "honor" of nerd-dom shows up alot. the sad thing is most the same players will bi*** at the next GW price increase (due next month)
Now look, I have run GW fan web-sites (the ole warhammerusa ranking site before i merged with andrew's rankinghq, i am a TO, and very active in the community. so i don't bash GW at all.
BUt gw doesnt cater to early 30's professional with their rules or target demographic.
soo i am sacrificing for what exactly?
But i am also of the mind that non gw models can be played in GT's.
and the costs can be as excessive or as not as you want.
(even i am guilty, i insist for my WHQ game, we only use the original minis...
